Podcast EP 105 | Why Stretch Targets are Garbage

Stretch tar­gets are garbage.

Peo­ple set stretch tar­gets in the hope that they will moti­vate a team to achieve bet­ter results than they oth­er­wise would. In most sit­u­a­tions how­ev­er, they don’t work and actu­al­ly cre­ate a set of sec­ond-order con­se­quences that run against the steady, con­sis­tent growth of a business.

This week Brad Giles and Kevin Lawrence talk about 6 rea­sons why stretch tar­gets don’t work, and what you should focus on instead. Be ambi­tious — and be con­fi­dent in your ambition.

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Kevin Lawrence 00:13

Wel­come to the Growth Whis­per­ers pod­cast where every­thing we talk about is relat­ed to build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies, com­pa­nies that grow and suc­ceed for decades. I’m Kevin Lawrence with my co host, Brad Giles. Brad, how you doing today?

Brad Giles 00:30

Fab­u­lous. Fab­u­lous. Final­ly, it’s start­ing to cool down in this part of the world. My new book is pro­gress­ing well, hope­ful­ly com­ing out mid year. How are you doing, Kev?

Kevin Lawrence 00:52

Great, I just came back from Hawaii, which is a very warm place to give myself an extra boost of warmth. So what do we have on today?

Brad Giles 01:18

Today, we are talk­ing about stretch targets.

Kevin Lawrence 01:53

I remem­ber the juve­nile ver­sion of myself in my ear­ly 20s would do this stuff all the time. And then you won­der why it did­n’t work seems very log­i­cal, and usu­al­ly blows up in your face. So we’re going to dig into stretch tar­get tar­gets being garbage today. But before we do, real quick word of the day.

Brad Giles 02:13

The word that I took is behav­iors. So I’ve been doing some work on behav­iors as a sub­set of core val­ues. So just think­ing about what are the behav­iors that lead to the core val­ues I’ve writ­ten about in the new book, and I’ve been doing some work with teams. So yeah, what are the behav­iors that we expect of our teams? And how do they con­tribute to our core val­ues? And what about yourself ?

Kevin Lawrence 02:37

Yeah, and by the way, I’ve seen some great work done on that, where you have the val­ues, and then you list a cou­ple of behav­iors that show liv­ing it and some cas­es not liv­ing that core val­ue real­ly helps to crys­tal­lize where it is, I love that great thing to do. Mine is also a bit of a behav­ior, it’s called drool­ing. And the val­ue of drool­ing and that’s like where you’re sit­ting there and sali­va sort of starts com­ing out of your mouth. And I just remind­ed of the pow­er of drool­ing when I was on vaca­tion for 10 days. Because it’s it’s almost a ref­er­ence to relax­ing, down­time, recov­ery time. And just, you know, for peo­ple like us that are GO GO GO GO, GO GO GO and then some hav­ing what I call drool time and the val­ue of that. So the val­ue of dif­fer­ent behav­iors, includ­ing drool­ing is what the theme is today. That’s prob­a­bly not a pret­ty pic­ture. We should prob­a­bly move on, Brad. So let’s get right into what we’re talk­ing about today. And you know, this garbage cold, stretch goals,

Brad Giles 03:40

hang on Stretch, stretch tar­gets. They’re real­ly use­ful. Like what oh, yeah, like they mat­ter. They make a real­ly, they make a real­ly big dif­fer­ence to our team. They moti­vate teams, they total­ly do.

Kevin Lawrence 03:58

And it’s like, hey, you know, let’s aim for the stars and land on the moon. That’s how it works. If you don’t aim for the stars, you’ll nev­er get to the moon. What Wait a sec­ond. When when the US decid­ed that they were going to go to the moon? Did they aim for the stars? I think we just had a moment of bril­liance there but I’m quite impressed with myself. But then oh, they did­n’t aim for the frickin stars back­wards. Sor­ry. Freak­ing they aimed for the freakin stars and go to the moon. They aim for the moon and they went to the moon. So we just blew up the whole the­o­ry of stretch tar­gets because the peo­ple that went or sup­pos­ed­ly went to the moon did­n’t aim for the stars. Isn’t that awesome?

Brad Giles 04:47

No, that is awe­some. That is awe­some because you know it’s It was a clear goal that peo­ple knew peo­ple ral­lied behind for years. They knew when they achieved it, and they knew when they did­n’t achieve it. Right. So, so I guess we’ve seen enough stretch tar­gets to, I would say, now be able to say that they’re garbage like that they have some real struc­tur­al prob­lems, that that I think the two of us are able to defend our per­spec­tive. Now, we may not be right in some peo­ple’s eyes. But you know, to put it out there and say, stretch tar­gets and garbage and here is why is what we’re kind of pushed today.

Kevin Lawrence 05:46

Yeah, and I’m just think­ing about that from like, if NASA and the US to said that we’re good to go and have a mis­sion to the stars, yeah, no one would believe it. That’s Looney Tunes, they pick the spe­cif­ic thing and aim for it, and ral­ly peo­ple. Now, it was a big goal. But it was a big goal that they knew they could well, they believe that they could get to and that’s what we’re going to dig into here today. Is you know, and the rea­son my struc­ture and when I’ve been involved in them in the past, because I used to be bad at set­ting them with peo­ple that we worked with, is I did think of moti­vat­ed peo­ple. And it made them think big­ger, and it made me feel good. Now, we often do use a stretch tar­get, but it’s some­thing that said 25 plus years in the future. And that’s some­thing called a B hag as per Jim Collins is think­ing and his research. But that’s, that’s 25 years in the future, and you got time to be able to get there, we’re talk­ing about short term things that peo­ple aim for that gen­er­al­ly, they think is moti­va­tion­al and ops, often it does the oppo­site. And it D moti­vates peo­ple. And it takes the wind out of the sails of the orga­ni­za­tion, because they have to keep show­ing up and say­ing we did­n’t hit it. We did­n’t hit it, we did­n’t hit it. And that sense of con­stant­ly los­ing or fail­ing, does­n’t usu­al­ly build a lot of moti­va­tion in com­pa­nies. Miss­ing once is one thing ver­sus chron­i­cal­ly missing.

Brad Giles 07:13

I love that moon anal­o­gy, because it equal­ly, it’s clear and every­one can under­stand. But equal­ly, imag­ine if you were in a run­ning race, or even bet­ter a car race. And you said, Now I know that the For­mu­la One goes for an hour, let’s say but we’re going to aim to go for an hour and 30 it would change your whole plan, you would be like, Oh, well, we need this many tires. And we need that much fuel. And we need to have that many pit­stops. And you’re prepar­ing for some­thing. dif­fer­ence, right?

Kevin Lawrence 07:45

You pre­pare very dif­fer­ent­ly based on what the if you know your busi­ness well, and what you’re aim­ing for? Well, yeah, so look, you might have had suc­cess­ful stretch tar­gets here. And there. The chal­lenge is, is it’s gen­er­al­ly and I would call it in my expe­ri­ence ear­li­er in my career, a bit of a juve­nile, you know, get­ting excit­ed, and we’re going to set some­thing big, and often over­selling it. And then dis­ap­point­ing and, and not only do you dis­ap­point the peo­ple involved in it, you could dis­ap­point the peo­ple that might have ben­e­fit­ed from what you were doing or if it was a cus­tomer or some­thing else. And so it’s just, you know, it’s a dan­ger­ous, dan­ger­ous ter­ri­to­ry. And peo­ple do it because they think it moti­vates peo­ple. And actu­al­ly, we believe it does the oppo­site. Well, it’s a it’s a poor moti­va­tion tool.

Brad Giles 08:31

There are oth­er moti­va­tion tools that are designed or are fit for pur­pose. This cre­ates mas­sive sec­ond order con­se­quences in the orga­ni­za­tion, if you are using stretch targets.

Kevin Lawrence 08:46

Yes. And as peo­ple who have been set­ting goals with orga­ni­za­tions and you know, I’ve done 1000s of strate­gic plan­ning ses­sions, as you have read, it’s, we’ve learned that’s not the way to do it. Now, a lit­tle bit lat­er, we’ll share a cou­ple of tech­niques if you want to stretch, but stretch tar­gets them­selves aren’t and so the only a cou­ple of points to remem­ber is the first thing is that man­age­men­t’s job is to accu­rate­ly pre­dict per­for­mance. And it can be both ways. You just think you don’t real­ly want to over­shoot, or you want to under­shoot you’re try­ing to nail what can we achieve? That would be hard, but doable? Because if you don’t, you know, if you cre­ate prob­lems with your banks, your share­hold­ers, your employ­ees, your cus­tomers, because you’re not pro­duc­ing as you said, you should it was real­ly inter­est­ing. I have one very suc­cess­ful chair­man who owned a num­ber of dif­fer­ent busi­ness­es. And he would get just as upset when some­one over achieved a prof­it tar­get than when they under achieved a prof­it tar­get because his belief was look, if you under either way, it’s mis­man­age­ment, you should know your busi­ness and be able to run it well. If they under achieved it. Then we know that either they did­n’t bud­get right If they did­n’t do that, well or, you know, they did­n’t con­sid­er all the risks and oppor­tu­ni­ties, or they did­n’t run the busi­ness. Well, you know, through­out the year, when they over achieved it, he would almost get more upset because he’s like, and by the way, if they under­achieved it, that also means he would have to give them cash, or it would­n’t pro­duce the cash it was sup­posed to for the moth­er­ship. And that affect­ed their invest­ment strate­gies for oth­er parts of the busi­ness. When peo­ple would over­achieve. First of all, he’d be like, well, you know, in his not His words, my words that peo­ple were sand­bag­ging. They were under set­ting a tar­get so they could eas­i­ly get their bonus. And the oth­er thing that both­ered him, he said, Look, if I knew I’d have a num­ber, no, I know have an extra 10 or $20 mil­lion, I would have made dif­fer­ent plans for that cap­i­tal. If I knew I would have it, I could have invest­ed it, or put it in oth­er busi­ness­es or oth­er pro­grams or back into busi­ness if I knew I’d have that extra cash. So inter­est­ing. First time, my career so he’d be equal­ly frus­trat­ed if some­one under­achieved as if they over­achieved because it’s basi­cal­ly mis­man­age­ment and poten­tial­ly screw­ing up or affect­ing the bal­ance sheet of the mothership.

Brad Giles 11:09

Yeah, it demon­strates that you’re not in con­trol of the busi­ness that you’re kind of rolling the dice, as, and there isn’t a sense of pre­dictabil­i­ty. Now, I under­stand that some things, you know, hap­pen, and some things grow faster. And we’re not real­ly talk­ing about that what we’re talk­ing about is, this is what we’re going to achieve full stop.

Kevin Lawrence 11:33

Yes. And we’re say­ing here, we’re not say­ing not to be ambi­tious, be ambi­tious. But just make darn sure that you’re com­mit­ted and con­fi­dent so that you have the deter­mi­na­tion to deliv­er. So be ambi­tious, but be prac­ti­cal about your ambi­tion. And don’t say we’re going to go to the stars, when you know, get­ting to the moon would real­ly be the right goal.

Brad Giles 11:54

Yeah, you’ve got to be ambi­tious and con­fi­dent enough about your busi­ness plan that you can lock in an ambi­tious tar­get. Whilst the sec­ond thing you know, is the bipo­lar sense of hav­ing two sets of books? Ah, it is, you know, it’s so frus­trat­ing when peo­ple say, so we’ve got a set of books for the bank, and we’ve got a set of books for the lead­er­ship team. It’s like, where does that seem like a good idea?

Kevin Lawrence 12:32

And to clar­i­fy, we’re say­ing set of books as in goals and bud­gets, not we’re hid­ing cash away from cer­tain peo­ple in fal­si­fy­ing books, we’re just say­ing, like, like some, you know, some com­pa­nies used to run two sets of books, you know, one for tax­es and one for them­selves. But this is more of just, you know, two sets of two notably dif­fer­ent goals that they’re dri­ving to.

Brad Giles 12:59

And why would you want to have a dif­fer­ent set of goals or books or tar­gets for the bank? Because you don’t have con­fi­dence, and you don’t have con­trol over what you’re exe­cut­ing in the busi­ness? And, and that stems from again, be ambi­tious, but be con­fi­dent in your ambition.

Kevin Lawrence 13:22

Yeah, and we could argue, and I can think of a cou­ple sce­nar­ios, where you might give the bank a soft­er num­ber, right? Like if the, if the busi­ness thinks it’s, you’re gonna do 100 mil­lion in rev­enue, and you’re gonna hit 12 and a half mil­lion of EBIT­DA. You might go to the bank, and say we expect to pro­duce 10. Like, there could be a sce­nario, espe­cial­ly if you had a cou­ple of rough years, espe­cial­ly if you were just in spe­cial accounts. And you’ve had a rough peri­od yet. Yeah, Mike, you could see the thing. But that’s more of maybe some­thing the CFO man­ages with the banks, every­one else isn’t involved in that’s not a dis­cus­sion, there’s one num­ber with­in the com­pa­ny, we might just do some rela­tion­ship man­age­ment. We’re not say­ing not to do rela­tion­ship man­age­ment if you have to, to set an expec­ta­tion. It’s just some com­pa­nies will run two dif­fer­ent bud­gets and have two dif­fer­ent ver­sions, which becomes con­fus­ing. And it’s like, Okay, what’s the goal that?

Brad Giles 14:16

Yeah, it’s like, it’s like hav­ing a car race, where you’ve got to fin­ish lines. Yes, you don’t, you don’t watch the for­mu­la ones. And they say, Well, this is the fin­ish line. But then there’s anoth­er fin­ish line. It’s, it’s it does­n’t make any sense at all. We want to have one direc­tion one goal. Because with when we’ve got two dif­fer­ent goals, it can have such neg­a­tive sec­ond order con­se­quences, it can be real­ly demo­ti­vat­ing. For a play­ers want to When they have that innate sense, they real­ly they have a need to win. And we’ve got to align our­selves around that need and give them the real clear sense of win­ning, hav­ing a stretch tar­get, it’s, it’s kind of like it’s a bit of a fake one, a bit of a fight, win, if we get to the orig­i­nal, the non stretch goal.

Kevin Lawrence 15:23

Right, because there was a bet­ter goal ver­sus if you could achieve it and you got a sec­ond, there’s a lot of psy­chol­o­gy. And so hav­ing two sets of books is con­fus­ing, as we’ve talked about. And it’s just, it’s, it could set up all kinds of weird psy­chol­o­gy. So if you have to do some rela­tion­ship man­age­ment do, but for every­one in the com­pa­ny, we’re think­ing about one goal, one num­ber. The third thing is a Suc­cess builds con­fi­dence. And that’s the main thing. I mean, how do you get young kids com­fort­able doing things like rid­ing a bike, right, you don’t take the kid when they’re learn­ing how to ride the bike, take them up to the top of the hill and just let them go and see what hap­pens. We know not to do that you do lit­tle things. First, you hold the seat and run behind them for all of us that have taught kids to ride a bike. And then you’ve got you know, some­times they have bikes with­out train­ing wheels, where they just use the legs. Or some­times you have the old ped­al bikes, and you’ve got train­ing wheels, and then you grad­u­al­ly loosen the wheels, and then you lift their kid right up and down the curb. Like there’s a there’s like a 14 step process to get­ting a kid con­fi­dent rid­ing a bike. And then if some­thing hap­pens, and it does­n’t work, you kind of got to restart it. We know that and by the way, adults aren’t that dif­fer­ent than kids. Right, except for the things you know, the rid­ing the bike, we already have con­fi­dence, although a cou­ple of good crash­es might, might shake some­one’s con­fi­dence a lit­tle bit. But the point of it is, is that that con­fi­dence and momen­tum you get from con­stant­ly achiev­ing helps you a lot. And not achiev­ing and con­stant­ly fail­ing takes it the oth­er way, and makes peo­ple doubt them­selves makes peo­ple more unsure of them­selves, which can often lead to low­er performance.

Brad Giles 17:05

Suc­cess builds con­fi­dence. That’s the key point that you’re mak­ing, right? Because if we have said for the last, let’s say 10 quar­ters, that we’re going to achieve X and give or take, we’ve achieved X, we’ve got a great deal of con­fi­dence in our­selves to accu­rate­ly set the next quar­ters goals, and that we can achieve those giv­en all of the cor­po­rate mem­o­ry that we’ve devel­oped over time. Yeah.

Kevin Lawrence 17:38

So num­ber four, is that actu­al­ly fail­ure is valu­able, real fail­ure, you know, real fail­ure from a real sol­id goal. Because you know, once it’s cool, a sol­id goal that you aim for, and it can build moti­va­tion. It can build learn­ing, it can build growth. But if you’ve got a whole bunch of dif­fer­ent goals, and you’re not ful­ly com­mit­ted, or you’re not sure what you’re com­mit­ted to, you often miss out on some of that fail­ure that you get by hav­ing a soli­tary obsession.

Brad Giles 18:11

Fail. Yeah, you know, no one learns from suc­cess. Peo­ple only legit­i­mate­ly Yes, yes, suc­cess is a lousy teacher. You know, it, I think we might have been Bill Gates that said that suc­cess is a lousy teacher, right? We will learn from fail­ure. So we’ve got to embrace the learn­ings of the team that will come from fail­ure and set­ting these kind of these, these bipo­lar goals, these stretch tar­gets, where are we still win­ning? If we do 100, that we’re real­ly win­ning? If we get to 125? Like, where is the fail­ure in that? So know­ing that we get the learn­ing and the growth out of that is what real­ly mat­ters? Yep. Awe­some. Mov­ing on. The fifth one is, we might need more time to debate and land on a sol­id tar­get. So it might take a lit­tle bit more time for us to be able to decide on what it is. And there might be a bit of risk in that. But the depth in plan­ning that we get, like the val­ue that the team gets from being able to set the goals and exe­cute the goals and suc­ceed. When we have one goal, it makes a huge dif­fer­ence to the team and their com­pe­tence mov­ing forward.

Kevin Lawrence 19:35

And if you look at just doing get­ting a bud­get, right, whether it’s a bud­get or goals, you know, either way, there’s a great exer­cise of risks and oppor­tu­ni­ties, based on the goal. Here’s a list of all the risks, risks, and how it will affect the project, whether it’s in terms of time or mon­ey. And here’s all the oppor­tu­ni­ties and all the things that could go our way and would ben­e­fit us in terms of time and mon­ey. And we’ve gone and done that in com­pa­nies. It’s all a lot more work. But you then start to look at okay, well, if we’ve got 6 mil­lion of bot­tom line risk, and 6 mil­lion of oppor­tu­ni­ty, and we look at it and go, they’re all fair­ly, we could see how that sol­id list, you can almost say that you’re 12 and a half mil­lion dol­lar bud­get is real­is­tic, right? Because you got six things, 6 mil­lion bucks that go the wrong way and 6 mil­lion to go the right way, we’ve prob­a­bly got a good num­ber, you end­ed up with 20 mil­lion that could go the right way. And 100 mil­lion could go the wrong way, which would­n’t hap­pen on that p&l, but 10 mil­lion to go the right way. And 2 mil­lion the Google the wrong way, you might pick a high­er num­ber, or you might feel very secure in it, the point of it is, is more deep­er debate and get­ting a bud­get right is hard, real­ly, real­ly, real­ly hard. And it takes time and maybe you need more time on what­ev­er it hap­pens to be. Even in our strate­gic plan­ning ses­sions, we often don’t have enough time to debate these things. Often we’ll say okay, either peo­ple do prep in advance on a num­bers and prepar­ing them. Or maybe they need a week after to go in and crunch and get down to final num­bers just so that we can lock down on it.

Brad Giles 21:11

This is what we’re going to do full stop. Like, that’s what we want. We want that con­fi­dence, because of the prep before and after, as you just like I’m doing both with teams. We want that con­fi­dence, this is what we’re going to do. And we become an exe­cu­tion machine. Like we just exe­cute real­ly, real­ly well con­sis­tent­ly, and build the con­fi­dence because like we allud­ed to this, and we said this before, one of the worst things, a quick sto­ry, I had a sales man­ag­er and the sales man­ag­er was in love with stretch tar­gets, this sales man­ag­er would go out and would always set these out­ra­geous sales tar­gets, and over mul­ti­ple years had nev­er come any­where close to any of them. And did­n’t real­ly even he would call it a stretch tar­get and then did­n’t have any, like nor­mal tar­get. And, and so he was wed­ded to it. He’s like it moti­vates the sales team. It gets him to work so much hard­er. And I said, Do you real­ize that your CEO has to stand up in front of the board every quar­ter and explain to the board? Why we did­n’t hit the num­bers and why they’re so far off? And what do you think that does to the con­fi­dence in them in the CEO? Like it’s erod­ing every sin­gle time?

Kevin Lawrence 22:38

Yep. Good. So final­ly, it just vio­lates Collins’s 20 mile march, is it through his research and a book read by choice is about find­ing a min­i­mum and max­i­mum amount that you’re going to grow. So you have steady con­sis­tent growth of your com­pa­ny, and don’t have juve­nile insane­ly explo­sive growth, fol­lowed by insane­ly implo­sive peri­ods of time where things don’t go well. It’s just sol­id steady, and he found in his research, and dur­ing great com­pa­nies had sol­id con­sis­tent growth, not doing too much, not doing too lit­tle. And so that, you know, what we’re talk­ing about here is stretch tar­gets vio­late the prin­ci­ple that Mr. Collins has fig­ured out is the right way to build endur­ing great com­pa­nies. And he seems to have done very well, with all of his prin­ci­ples hold up very, very well, in the clients. We work with. The bonus though, we got a lit­tle bonus one here, Brad. And that’s like, okay, okay, yes, I know, there, but for those of you that want to be able to stretch a lit­tle bit, there is some­thing that we have seen work and we’re not, we’re not gonna argue against our­selves. We’re just gonna give you anoth­er lit­tle thought here, which is, you know, hav­ing a set goal and then say­ing that we’re going to go and push back it back past it to see what we could do. You can do that now. Got to be care­ful that could be you know, accord­ing to Collins is 20 mile Marsh, there could be some dan­ger now, but we’re human. You don’t have to, you know, we these things are prin­ci­ples. But one thing you can do is to sort of say, Okay, we’re gonna hit our 12 and a half mil­lion prof­it tar­get. And we’re gonna con­tin­ue to push, right? It’s still 12 and a half. You don’t say, Well, we could do 12 and a half, we could do 15. And you could there are some frame­works for that. But it’s like we’re aim­ing for 12 and a half. You might have in your mind, I think we can exceed it team let’s try and push past it. But that way, when you get 12 and a half, you’re still hap­py. And there is a a mod­el we use some­times that allows us to set an over Achieve­ment Goal, but the goal is still the goal ie 12 and a half as a goal we know we can achieve our risks and oppor­tu­ni­ties have con­firmed that we can and you know we might do some­thing awe­some if we get to 13 mil­lion or 14 mil­lion, or what­ev­er it hap­pens to be, but it’s no mat­ter what the 12 and a half is a sol­id goal that we know we can achieve and it’s healthy for the busi­ness, we just leave room to do more, then what hap­pens next quarter.

Brad Giles 25:11

So we get to the next quar­ter, and it’s time to set the goals. Like we have to bud­get if we’re able to, if we’re able to achieve more like we want con­fi­dence in what we can do. So I’m not say­ing in your exam­ple, it should be 14 mil­lion. But we recal­i­brate and we reach every quar­ter and we recal­i­brate and we recal­i­brate. We don’t push the team to break­ing by any means. We want to have achiev­able ambi­tious goals that we’re con­fi­dent in.

Kevin Lawrence 25:47

It’s great to over­achieve. Some­times you just got to be care­ful that you don’t want to get too greedy and make a big­ger mess of it. Awe­some. So there are let’s quick­ly do a review of the sev­en, I’ll do the first three, they’re brand new to the Final Four, man whose job is to accu­rate­ly pre­dict per­for­mance, not too low, not too high, but try­ing to hit the num­bers you would you want to achieve or you com­mit to doing. And it’s still being ambi­tious, but it’s ambi­tious, know­ing that you can win and not over­stretch­ing it to things just to think it’s gonna moti­vate peo­ple. Sec­ond­ly, hav­ing two sets of books, mean­ing two dif­fer­ent num­bers, you’re aim­ing for a con­ser­v­a­tive tar­get, and then their aggres­sive tar­get, it gets con­fus­ing to peo­ple try and pick one, you know, the f1 race does­n’t have to fin­ish lines. And Suc­cess builds con­fi­dence. It’s con­tin­u­al­ly achiev­ing, I mean, helps to build momen­tum and con­fi­dence and strength and aligns teams and a great, great things come when peo­ple are con­fi­dent and believe they can do things.

Brad Giles 26:51

Num­ber three, num­ber four part of a real fail­ure. So fail­ure mat­ters. Peo­ple don’t learn from suc­cess, peo­ple learn from fail­ure. So it’s okay if the team fails, pro­vid­ed that they learn. And when you’ve got ambigu­ous tar­gets, peo­ple aren’t real­ly fail­ing, and they aren’t real­ly learn­ing. The next one, we need to spend more time when we have only one tar­get. But that’s okay. Because it helps the team to be come bet­ter at exe­cut­ing. And then num­ber six, it vio­late it vio­lates Jim Collins 20 mile march rule, which is about con­sis­ten­cy, we’re not going to do 20 miles one day, and then 35 the next when the con­di­tions are bet­ter. We’re going to do 20 miles and we’re going to be con­sis­tent about that. So that cov­ers why stretch tar­gets are garbage. And, yeah, maybe you’ve got a dif­fer­ent per­spec­tive. But our expe­ri­ence, I guess unan­i­mous­ly land­ed us on, let’s be con­fi­dent in what we’re try­ing to achieve. Thank you, Kevin. It’s been a plea­sure today. And if you’d like to see the YouTube video, you can go to youtube​.com Search for the Growth Whis­per­ers as you can find Kevin at Lawrence and co​.com and you can find myself Brad at evo­lu­tion part​ners​.com​.au I hope you’ve enjoyed the episode. Look for­ward to chat­ting to you again next week.