Podcast Ep 150 | I have a key executive that I think is ineffective, what do I do?

It can be quite com­mon for lead­ers to be not sat­is­fied with an exec­u­tive or key employee.

How­ev­er, it’s impor­tant not to allow that frus­tra­tion to remain, but to under­stand why you are feel­ing this way. This means becom­ing clear on the gaps between your expec­ta­tions, and actu­al per­for­mance, and then hav­ing a con­ver­sa­tion with them so they are aware and have an oppor­tu­ni­ty to recal­i­brate and meet your expectations.

The fail­ure of many lead­ers is expe­ri­enc­ing this frus­tra­tion, but keep­ing it a secret, which isn’t fair to either party. 

If you’re feel­ing that an exec­u­tive might not be per­form­ing, in this episode we talk about why you should act on it, and we pro­vide sev­er­al tools on how to under­stand, assess, and act on it. 

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

00:13
Kevin Lawrence
Hey, and wel­come to the Growth Whis­pers pod­cast with Kevin Lawrence and Brad Giles, where every­thing we talk about is about build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies that con­tin­ue to grow and thrive as they move on for decades. Today is a bit of a spe­cial episode. 150. Brad, 150 times we have sit­ting here star­ing at each oth­er, com­ing up with some good stuff to share with the audi­ence. That’s pret­ty darn spec­tac­u­lar, I got to say.

00:42
Brad Giles
It’s a lot. 150 con­sec­u­tive weeks we’ve come togeth­er and spo­ken about this stuff. Yeah, it feels pret­ty good, to be hon­est. It feels real­ly good to just catch up, to learn from each oth­er and to kind of go deep on some of these sub­jects. It’s real­ly good.

01:03
Kevin Lawrence
It is. I got to say, as I’ve told you, I could­n’t have done this with­out you. The dis­ci­pline to con­tin­ue to do this. I’m a col­lab­o­ra­tor by nature and one col­lab­o­rat­ing togeth­er in the dis­cus­sion is awe­some. With col­lab­o­ra­tion comes a lot more account­abil­i­ty. We get into words of the day, my word of the day is col­lab­o­ra­tive account­abil­i­ty and it’s like, you’re not my boss, I’m not your boss. We col­lab­o­rate, but we are account­able to each oth­er because we want to be. In a strong col­lab­o­ra­tive rela­tion­ship, I think it brings the best out of us. Con­grat­u­la­tions on 150 and thank you for the col­lab­o­ra­tive accountability.

01:47
Brad Giles
Well, thank you as well. Yeah, I think that we our per­son­al­i­ty styles com­ple­ment each oth­er and we’re both quite curi­ous by nature, which is good. My Word phrase of the day, ego is the ene­my. It’s a book by a guy called Ryan Hal­l­i­day. Prob­a­bly my favorite book to rec­om­mend and con­sis­tent­ly, year after year is the num­ber one book that I’m kind of rec­om­mend­ing to peo­ple. I’m reread­ing again at the moment. Just assume. Yeah, just to recal­i­brate, to rethink and to reassess. It’s just look, it’s old Sto­ic wis­dom, but inside every one of us is our ene­my. Our ene­my is not our neigh­bor or our busi­ness part­ner or our ex hus­band or wife.

02:39
Kevin Lawrence
Between our ears.

02:41
Brad Giles
It’s between our ears. That’s exact­ly right. Yeah. So, col­lab­o­ra­tion and I’m not going to try to stitch those togeth­er because I nev­er have and I nev­er will. But that’s your job, Kev.

02:52
Kevin Lawrence
Chuck, you did get it once. I’m not even going to try.

02:55
Brad Giles
I bit my tail­wind, though.

02:58
Kevin Lawrence
Healthy col­lab­o­ra­tion can also be very good for man­ag­ing an ego.

03:02
Brad Giles
Yeah.

03:03
Kevin Lawrence
Healthy col­lab­o­ra­tion requires it. By the way, if you’re col­lab­o­rat­ing with some­one whose ego is out of con­trol, good luck. That’s a night­mare on that track. Have you read this one? Brad Rebel ideas.

03:13
Brad Giles
No.

03:13
Kevin Lawrence
It’s a real­ly good book. I need to go back and read it again. Like, Ego is the ene­my. Matthew Syed.

03:22
Brad Giles
Yes. That’s for audi­ence who can’t see the video.

03:25
Kevin Lawrence
Yes. It is spec­tac­u­lar. It is an amaz­ing book. In many ways, it’s sim­i­lar to ego as the ene­my and how ego can get in the way of good lead­er­ship. It’s not writ­ten from the ego per­spec­tive. It’s awe­some. We could do a whole episode for 72 hours talk­ing about our favorite books and the best principles.

03:45
Brad Giles
What’s that title again, please?

03:47
Kevin Lawrence
It is rebel ideas, the pow­er of diverse think­ing. Awe­some book. We’re dis­cussing it this week at one of our client meet­ings. So, hey, let’s dig into the show. Basi­cal­ly today is, hey, I think I’ve got an exec­u­tive. It’s inef­fec­tive. What do I do? We’re going to do some­thing and we’re going to dig into it. The real­i­ty is, the most impor­tant thing is that you do some­thing, you do it now because exec­u­tive roles are crit­i­cal. The lit­tle secret is, if you think that the exec­u­tive is inef­fec­tive, they prob­a­bly are because you’re their boss. Whether it’s an exec­u­tive or direc­tor, gen­er­al­ly your instincts are pret­ty good in the role that you’re in. We got to make sure jump bot Brad shak­ing his head and shak­ing his hand like there’s some­thing going on. Do tell.

04:46
Brad Giles
But they prob­a­bly are. The real ques­tion is, why are they inef­fec­tive and what do you do about it? That’s the thing. They prob­a­bly are. I total­ly agree. Your gut is often accu­rate, if not intu­itive. We need to pay atten­tion to that, but don’t do noth­ing. Many lead­ers are like, you know what? My last boss was an ahole. I don’t want to be that ahole boss and nev­er going to be like that. They let stuff slide and slide and account­abil­i­ty is nonex­is­tent. Peo­ple think that you just don’t care when you don’t hold peo­ple accountable.

05:30
Kevin Lawrence
Well, you don’t. You’re try­ing to be nice, but being super nice and not giv­ing feed­back is not good in lead­er­ship. So we’re going to dig into this. The key thing is you need to fig­ure it out and get clear on what the truth is and get beyond feel­ings. To quote Jim Collins lan­guage, are they in the wrong seat or are they in the wrong bus? Or have they not been giv­en the right direc­tion by their man­ag­er, which is you or me or Brad. So it’s com­mon. We hear this all the time. The key is to fig­ure out what the per­for­mance gap actu­al­ly is, to know it, and then once it, to see is it some­thing that’s fix­able? If it is fix­able and can be, then the sec­ond thing most impor­tant is to take it from a secret to a solu­tion that’s being worked on with them.

06:20
Kevin Lawrence
Get­ting back to that col­lab­o­ra­tive piece. For most peo­ple, as you said, Brad, the fail­ure is the leader knows. They may or may not have thought about it, but they haven’t had the con­ver­sa­tion. It’s not fair to them or you. You got it. Get it on the table and see if you can get them back to thriv­ing again.

06:40
Brad Giles
Yeah. What are the facts, not the opin­ions? Because maybe you’ve had a bad day, maybe you haven’t slept enough. Maybe you’re not clear on your expec­ta­tions. There’s a whole range of things. Come back to the fact, do they have KPIs or met­rics? If they need to sell $1 mil­lion and they’ve sold $600,000, that’s a very good fact.

07:07
Kevin Lawrence
Right. If they have to sell and there’s no bud­get or noth­ing to com­pare to, well, then it’s not a fact, it’s a feeling.

07:14
Brad Giles
Exact­ly.

07:15
Kevin Lawrence
In many cas­es, the expec­ta­tions aren’t clear. So I’ll give an exam­ple. We have this one rock star exec­u­tive. They were amaz­ing in the role they were doing in the com­pa­ny. The com­pa­ny was grow­ing. They were grow­ing. All kinds of awe­some things hap­pened. We opened up anoth­er divi­sion of the com­pa­ny in a total­ly dif­fer­ent loca­tion, far away, and this per­son went to go run that divi­sion, and it did­n’t go well. Now, was it the divi­sion? Was it the per­son? The divi­sion, I think, had some fatal flaws, but the per­son also got into a role where they were an effec­tive exec­u­tive, but now they were run­ning a full PNL and they did not thrive. They tried hard and was giv­en resources. That divi­sion, in the end, the divi­sion, we got rid of the divi­sion, and the per­son came back into the core busi­ness and now is in a role where we learn more about the per­son in that role.

08:19
Kevin Lawrence
Now they’re in a role where they’re com­plete­ly thriv­ing. It’s the per­fect role for them. They’re back to being an A plus play­er. For them, they weren’t over­ly effec­tive, but it required a role change. When they made the role change, they got back into their sweet spot of doing their best work and absolute­ly thriv­ing, and every­one is thrilled. And again, you make these exper­i­ments. Some­times you try stuff, but they were a good per­son. Wrong seat.

08:47
Brad Giles
You briefly men­tioned it before, jim Collins. Wrong seat, wrong bus. Jim Collins says that the job of a leader is to get the right peo­ple in the right seats, doing the right things the right way. He says, when we’ve got a prob­lem with a key exec­u­tive, are they in the wrong seat? Maybe they would thrive in anoth­er area, which was your sto­ry, or are they on the wrong bus? In oth­er words, they’re just nev­er going to fit into this com­pa­ny, and that’ll fit the cul­ture. Yes, that’s right. That’s a part of what we’re say­ing here. But you’ve got to do some­thing. I worked with a leader, and I think it was around four years we had this prob­lem. We had a key exec­u­tive who was a tox­ic A, and that’s not nec­es­sar­i­ly effec­tive. This per­son was a tox­ic A.

09:38
Kevin Lawrence
Nec­es­sar­i­ly effective?

09:41
Brad Giles
No, he got the results right.

09:45
Kevin Lawrence
Cul­tur­al­ly, tox­ic A is an A on per­for­mance, but tox­ic because they fail on cul­ture. So they get the results. The joke is they’re nor­mal­ly in sales, but they’re just a night­mare for every­body else. For many peo­ple in the company.

10:05
Brad Giles
Yeah. Not nec­es­sar­i­ly inef­fec­tive because this per­son was mak­ing the num­bers, but the attri­tion the num­ber of peo­ple that had resigned was remark­able. This CEO sat around for four years and of course I’m there say­ing, what’s your num­ber one con­cern? What are you going to do about it? How are we going to know what’s the line in the sand that this per­son has to cross? My point there is we’ve got to do some­thing. We’ve got to do something.

10:37
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah. The root of it is try­ing to fig­ure out what the prob­lem is. I’ve got one exec­u­tive, and this is an awe­some exec­u­tive. I love this guy. He was great. I think he was very good at his job. There were some nuances to the cul­ture of this com­pa­ny that he could­n’t find a way to nav­i­gate. You would­n’t say he did­n’t meet the cul­ture, but he was maybe lack­ing a few of the things in the cul­ture. It was a pret­ty intense cul­ture. He just when the CEO and I were hav­ing con­ver­sa­tions because this guy was­n’t get­ting the results that we need­ed, there was a lot of chal­lenges, but he just was­n’t wired for the dynam­ics of the cul­ture. Good think­ing. A lot of the right things just did­n’t quite fit and he chose to move on, which was great for him and unfor­tu­nate in one way for the com­pa­ny because he’s a good per­son, but just gen­er­al­ly with the dynam­ics, he would­n’t have ever been able to make it.

11:34
Kevin Lawrence
Anoth­er one, and we see this a lot, where peo­ple’s per­son­al issues get in the way often. One CEO I work with, the CEO says, hey, I know each of my exec­u­tives is addict­ed to some­thing, I just want to know what and then I can work with it. Obvi­ous­ly alco­hol can be an issue, drugs can be an issue, gam­bling peo­ple can get high, strong exec­u­tives have blow off steam, and some­times it gets in the way. Drink­ing is a pret­ty com­mon one, that there’s chal­lenges around in our soci­ety, not just in the board­room. We had one exec­u­tive notable drink­ing issue, notably affect­ing per­for­mance, get­ting in the way when they were on the road, trav­el­ing in par­tic­u­lar. The CEO who loved this per­son like a father said to the per­son, I have a choice. I can fire you or I can pay for you to go to rehab.

12:33
Kevin Lawrence
What do you want to do? Yeah, rehab does­n’t always work. This per­son went to rehab and this per­son had gone through a real­ly rough patch in their life, like some real­ly chal­leng­ing things that hap­pened, and they just over­re­lied on alco­hol, I think, and went to rehab, goes to a got sup­port, bounced back into a thriv­ing A play­er role, which was won­der­ful. To see. Those per­son­al issues, and I’ve seen so many of them where they just start to be a mess and they can’t do their job and they can’t func­tion and they can’t get things done. Most com­pa­nies don’t have the skills of the resources to deal with that. Obvi­ous­ly we want to talk to them, point them at resources, see if we can get them some help or they can get some help. At some point if peo­ple can’t get it togeth­er, they’re not going to be able to do their role.

13:26
Brad Giles
It was just that last week I was speak­ing with a leader about this very sub­ject and I said to her, I said, look, this is going to go one of two ways and this is not the Brad thing. I’ve just seen this play out so many times. It’s only going to go one of two ways. Either you’re going to address this direct­ly with the per­son, you’re going to out­line the expec­ta­tions of the com­pa­ny and your­self as their man­ag­er and they will then adhere to those expec­ta­tions or they will exit. The sec­ond way is that your frus­tra­tions will boil over and it will cost you mon­ey. This feel­ing that this per­son is inef­fec­tive, those lit­tle tiny things will build and build until you lose steam, lose faith in the per­son or what­ev­er and you say, this per­son­’s got to go. If that’s an emo­tion­al­ly dri­ven deci­sion, yeah, not good.

14:20
Brad Giles
It can be very expensive.

14:22
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah, it can. And also inef­fec­tive. It also can be expen­sive finan­cial­ly and for your lead­er­ship because now you look like a hot under the col­lar leader who did­n’t act pro­fes­sion­al­ly and your oth­er rest of your team isn’t going to respect you. That’s a very dan­ger­ous. Let’s look at some of the prin­ci­ples that we’re talk­ing about and we’ll share some more exam­ples. The main thing here, you got a feel­ing, but you got to get to know­ing feel­ing can be dan­ger­ous. We can be biased, we can be emo­tion­al, we can be frus­trat­ed. We got to get to know­ing and real­ly under­stand­ing this. As I said up front, often when this starts to be a con­cern, espe­cial­ly if it’s a reg­u­lar con­cern, gen­er­al­ly, the per­son usu­al­ly ends up mov­ing on. Gen­er­al­ly, espe­cial­ly when it’s behav­ior stuff. Let’s go to one of things the Brad was talk­ing about, get back to expectations.

15:13
Kevin Lawrence
We’ve done lots of things around score­cards and top grad­ing and go back to the ini­tial spec for the job and what’s expect­ed and go and make sure that go and look at that and eval­u­ate them against it and try and find where the block is. We do this a lot with CEOs. What is the actu­al issue?

15:32
Brad Giles
I wrote a book about it Onboard­ing. If the per­son does­n’t have a score­card, the book that I wrote called Onboard­ed, it out­lines the impor­tance and how to build a score­card and how to exe­cute and imple­ment it. It’s unfair to have a per­son not under­stand how to suc­ceed in the role. They might be capa­ble and they might want to suc­ceed, but it’s unfair if we don’t help them to suc­ceed. There could be oth­er things that are going on, like maybe they’re going through a men­tal health cri­sis them­selves, a divorce. There could be any range of things. Part of that is under­stand­ing the sit­u­a­tion. Once we’ve got the facts, what is the real sit­u­a­tions? Because it could be whilst instinc­tu­al­ly or in pure text­book style, it could say if they’re inef­fec­tive, then just sack them. Well, maybe the first thing to do is to put your arm around them metaphor­i­cal­ly, right?

16:37
Brad Giles
To say, we’re here to sup­port you men­tioned before, we’re hap­py to send you to rehab. It’s a real­ly tough chal­lenge, we want to help you get through this. You got to have the facts to under­lie that sec­ond decision.

16:51
Kevin Lawrence
Go back and eval­u­ate them based on the role and the ques­tions that you have in your book. Brad, are they capa­ble of suc­ceed­ing in the role? Do they under­stand and do they want to you’re right for your men­tal health we talked about the oth­er thing is we reg­u­lar­ly do tal­ent reviews where we go through and look at the key exec­u­tives every 90 days and we eval­u­ate them. Where are they at? We answer in our sys­tem 30, 40 ques­tions about them and then we decide the devel­op­ment plan every 90 days. That’s why I’m relent­less about this with the teams I work with. We’re at a two day meet­ing start­ing tomor­row, sor­ry, Wednes­day, Tues­day, Wednes­day, and this is Sun­day that we’re here in this meet­ing. We will spend 2 hours going through all of the key peo­ple and I am look­ing to make sure that there is a mini devel­op­ment plan for every sin­gle key leader.

17:41
Kevin Lawrence
Real­ly what that is hey, man­agers, do your job. That’s what you’re sup­posed to do every quar­ter. Peo­ple don’t. Hav­ing a dis­ci­pline to make sure that hap­pens is some­thing that we oper­a­tional­ize because then this stuff can only slip one or two or three quar­ters, no mat­ter what it is. The route is then once what the issue is, to go and work with them, part­ner with them, to come up with reclar­i­fy­ing the expec­ta­tions that must be met and then work­ing with them on the how. What can we do to make this work but tan­gi­ble in writ­ing and then fol­low­ing up reg­u­lar­ly. This is not like take a mag­ic pill in the world is good. If it’s real­ly casu­al, it could be a fol­low up every cou­ple of weeks, every month. If it’s real­ly intense, you might be hav­ing a meet­ing every sin­gle week. It’s work­ing with them to get back on track.

18:36
Brad Giles
That real­ly comes back to those three ques­tions are they capa­ble of suc­ceed­ing in the role? Do they under­stand how to suc­ceed in the role, and they want to suc­ceed in the role, and if they’re capa­ble of suc­ceed­ing and they want to suc­ceed, well, whether or not they are is on them, and that’s fine, and then that cre­ates a dif­fer­ent path. If they don’t under­stand, that’s kind of on the man­ag­er, and that’s the man­ager’s job. And that’s what we’re real­ly say­ing. If we’re scor­ing each of those three out of ten, you real­ly want to get an aver­age of about eight for all of these to have con­fi­dence, to move for­ward. So a total of like, 24.

19:16
Kevin Lawrence
Jim Collins has a ques­tion. He has sev­en ques­tions to decide whether you’re going to devel­op or replace. He shared one of his ses­sions, and we have that in episode 46. Lis­ten to it if you want to dig in fur­ther. One of the ques­tions is, are they more of a win­dow or a mir­ror per­son? The sim­ple expla­na­tion is, when things go wrong, do they point out the win­dow and blame, or do they look in the mir­ror and learn? That one thing is a big pre­dic­tor. There’s a lot of them, but that’s a very big pre­dic­tor, because if they are always look­ing in the mir­ror and learn­ing, we’re more like­ly to invest in that per­son because they’re going to get bet­ter and bet­ter. If they’re a blamer and we can’t seem to get them off of that, they’ll nev­er learn, which means they’ll nev­er change. Every­thing that we’re get­ting at is under­stand­ing this.

20:15
Kevin Lawrence
The final thing in the mod­el is when you work out the plan, you often need to get them help. Like we reg­u­lar­ly our team will go in and coach key exec­u­tives we have a con­cern with. I’ll tell you about a head of sales. I was coach­ing this entre­pre­neur in a fam­i­ly busi­ness, and his head of sales was hor­ri­ble. Every ques­tion I asked was like a no. I was ask­ing about things heads of sales would do. Any­ways, long sto­ry short, one of my team start­ed coach­ing this guy, and we don’t know if we’re going to fire this guy in three months or not. When my team mem­ber got in there, he had no direc­tion from the CEO, and he was a guy who was work­ing in the busi­ness, who had a great per­son­al­i­ty to put him in sales. No sales. He was run­ning a sales team.

21:06
Kevin Lawrence
No sales train­ing, noth­ing. He was just a charm­ing guy who go and talk to the cus­tomers. That was a fail­ure of the orga­ni­za­tion. My team mem­ber said, well, hey, what about your sales meet­ing? What about your goals for your sales team? What about get­ting out? Like and they went through and he said, oh, okay, great. He was so will­ing and so capa­ble, he just did­n’t know what he was sup­posed to do. He was just play­ing office like oth­er, quote, boss­es did. Long sto­ry short, he got a clear plan align­ment with the CEO to what a sales lead­er’s job actu­al­ly is and the guy’s doing great but it was the CEO’s fault.

21:50
Brad Giles
Yeah that under­stand is always the lead­er’s fault because that’s their job. That’s their job to under­stand help them under­stand how to suc­ceed. That’s what man­age­ment is.

22:01
Kevin Lawrence
Yes. The idea here is that all that stuff is great but you can tell me as a young child that I’m not good with my timesta­bles and math­e­mat­ics and say Kevin go get bet­ter your times tables but if I don’t know how to that’s not fair right? You need to give peo­ple tools and guid­ance and sup­port some­times you might have to get them a coach, a men­tor, send them on a course. You might need to spend an hour a day or a cou­ple of hours a week teach­ing, coach­ing, train­ing what­ev­er it is. You often got to put some resource behind it to try and give it a real chance. Now in time you quick­ly see I mean most peo­ple have what I call the three week surge. You give feed­back to most peo­ple. The good hard­er ones will always surge for a few weeks and do better.

22:55
Kevin Lawrence
They often slip back to their old ways. The real thing we’re look­ing for is the sus­tain­able. It sticks and you’ll know you’ll see over 60 to 90 days for you nor­mal­ly in 90 days you can prob­a­bly make the choice yeah going yep let me rec­om­mend you make the choice. Do we con­tin­ue to invest or do we thank them for the time?

23:14
Brad Giles
Well if we cir­cle back to the head­line I have a key exec­u­tive that I think is effec­tive. What do I do? Well the first ques­tion is what does the score­card tell us? Not the job descrip­tion but the score­card. The score­card is a lot more defin­i­tive bina­ry, met­rics dri­ven and if you don’t have a score­card that’s where we’re say­ing begin with the facts, not the opin­ions. Your gut is prob­a­bly telling you some­thing and that’s some­thing is we need to iso­late the facts and then we need to talk about the facts and move for­ward. Many con­ver­sa­tions I’ve had start with okay what’s the score­card? What is that telling us? What is the real evi­dence here that we can focus on and then take action like we can­not make sure that this feel­ing won’t go away.

24:07
Kevin Lawrence
No you got to do and it’s the right thing to do to help. But I will say one oth­er thing. I’ve seen it’s inter­est­ing. That’s also why we go back to score­cards. We also have psy­cho­me­t­ric assess­ments of things to under­stand how the per­son­’s wired. I remem­ber one of the things that one of the exec­u­tives was fail­ing on in one com­pa­ny was assertive­ness. We go into top Grad­ing and we look at the score­card. Assertive­ness is col­ored red, which says that it’s very dif­fi­cult to change. Yes we go to psy­cho­met­rics and we would look at a disc and the per­son had a D of eleven. What? Yeah. Which means a D is dri­ve or dri­ven for results and basi­cal­ly will­ing­ness to push through obsta­cles and or have con­flict to get some­thing done.

25:00
Brad Giles
It’s not going to change.

25:01
Kevin Lawrence
At eleven, at eleven, you’re not even going to have a tough con­ver­sa­tion with an eleven year old. Right. Nev­er mind an exec­u­tive. Those peo­ple run from con­flict. They just don’t do it at the end of the day. And it’s a tough sit­u­a­tion. It’s like, well if the assertive­ness a lead­er­ship trait, they’re not able to do it. And their D is eleven. Like it’s not even fair to them to be in that role because exec­u­tive roles require a lot of con­flict and that per­son, and it does­n’t mean that you can’t make a deci­sion based on a Psy­chro­met­ric. As we dug in and got the facts, we’re like, how did this per­son end up in his job in the first place? Because the way that they’re wired is not con­sis­tent with the envi­ron­ment that they need to thrive in.

25:47
Brad Giles
That’s bru­tal, isn’t it?

25:49
Kevin Lawrence
It is. This per­son was loved by every­one and that was over a decade ago. I still have con­tact with that per­son. I real­ly admire that per­son. They’re smart and capa­ble, but in those senior exec­u­tive capa­bil­i­ties, the con­flict and those types of the lead­er­ship in con­flict, not them. So just going to wrap this up. The idea is as Brad did, look at, hey, you got to hunch some­thing’s not right. Get the facts, tru­ly under­stand the core issues the best you can. Under­stand what needs to hap­pen. Work with them on a plan. Make sure they know there’s a gap that needs to be filled. A lot of peo­ple will appre­ci­ate it if you work with them respect­ful­ly and find a way. That’s what we hope for. We always want our job as lead­ers. The job of lead­ers is to devel­op lead­ers and build lead­ers. We don’t want to for­get that in our work.

26:50
Brad Giles
Yeah, do some­thing. Don’t exact­ly keep it a secret. Don’t let the frus­tra­tion build.

26:56
Kevin Lawrence
No. So hey, thanks for lis­ten­ing. This has been the growth of Whis­pers pod­cast with Brad Giles down in Perth, Aus­tralia. Kevin Lawrence here in Van­cou­ver, Cana­da. We’re glad you joined us. If you haven’t, please sub­scribe. If you want to rate it, if you liked it, let us know. Give it a good rat­ing. That’s always appre­ci­at­ed for the video ver­sion. To see the video of this and see the reac­tions between us some­times, which can be enter­tain­ing. YouTube and just search the growth. Whis­pers brad and I both have newslet­ters we put out every week, shar­ing the best things we just love to share. That’s the busi­ness that we’re in. You can get Brad’s and learn more about Brad and his firm evo​lu​tion​part​ners​.co​.au and mine is lawrence​and​co​.com, we’re here to help. If there’s some­thing we can do to assist you, whether it’s to put some­thing on the show or to help you in your com­pa­ny, let us know.

27:45
Kevin Lawrence
Have a great week.