Podcast Ep 152 | I’m worried that I’m micromanaging my team - what should I do?

It’s been said that peo­ple join com­pa­nies and leave man­agers. Almost every­one can’t stand a boss who is a micro­man­ag­er. But what if you might be a micromanager?

You know you are a micro­man­ag­er if the weight of respon­si­bil­i­ty along with the think­ing and plan­ning relat­ed to it, ulti­mate­ly sits with you. You will know this is true if the prob­lems, think­ing and deci­sions come to you.

To avoid micro­man­age­ment and instead achieve lead­er­ship one must trans­fer the respon­si­bil­i­ty and coach the per­son. This leads to the clar­i­ty and ten­sion that dri­ves account­abil­i­ty and results. 

This week we dis­cuss what to do if you’re con­cerned that you might be a micro­man­ag­er.
 

PISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

00:13
Kevin Lawrence
Hey, wel­come to the Growth Whis­per­ers Pod­cast, where every­thing we talk about is build­ing, endur­ing great com­pa­nies. I’m Kevin Lawrence here in Van­cou­ver, British Colum­bia, Cana­da, here with my amaz­ing, cool pilot or lead pilot or what­ev­er you want to look at them as. Brad Giles down in Perth, Aus­tralia. Brad, how was the world treat­ing you today?

00:35
Brad Giles
Beau­ti­ful. It’s a very hot day today here, and I’m kind of say­ing that to tease you because thank you. I know it’s going to be cold, what­ev­er’s hap­pen­ing in your part of the world, but no, apart from the weath­er, look, life is good. Things are good. I keep hear­ing that we’re com­ing out of this pan­dem­ic from all dif­fer­ent sources. So delight­ed about that.

00:56
Kevin Lawrence
How are you doing? I’m great. Yeah. I had a cou­ple of days in the US. In Wash­ing­ton State and La this week in Cal­i­for­nia, and it got some real warmth down in Cal­i­for­nia and then came back here to Cana­da. It’s a lit­tle cold, but it was sun­ny, so that makes for a great day. So let’s jump right into today’s show. We got lots to cov­er. What is your word of the day?

01:20
Brad Giles
I guess pur­pose, core pur­pose. Been doing some work with a client. We know core pur­pose. Start with why all of this stuff around pur­pose. Why are you doing this? Why does your com­pa­ny exist? Is so impor­tant. It’s also, I guess, a part of a jig­saw and been work­ing on that today with one of the team mem­bers here for a client and just try­ing to con­nect the core pur­pose to how their finan­cials work through the prof­it, PEREX and a whole range of things. And they’ve got to click. They’ve got to come togeth­er. So, yeah, with­out going on, I could speak about that for the next 30 minutes.

02:02
Kevin Lawrence
We both could. Pur­pose. Mine is sim­i­lar. Mine is third gen­er­a­tion. A client I have that I work with india has made many great con­nec­tions for me. They referred me to anoth­er com­pa­ny india, that’s third generation.

02:22
Brad Giles
Wow.

02:24
Kevin Lawrence
Their grand­fa­ther start­ed it, went to the father, and now the two sons of the father are dri­ving the busi­ness. Their dad’s still around and light­ly involved. It was so cool talk­ing to a third gen­er­a­tion busi­ness. We got a cou­ple in our firm that are third. We’ve got one that’s fifth gen­er­a­tion, but those are less com­mon, and that’s part of our pur­pose. Speak­ing of pur­pose and dur­ing great com­pa­nies often means multi­gen­er­a­tional, and it’s an hon­or to work with and even learn about how they got to the third gen­er­a­tion. How pur­pose can tran­scend into the sec­ond and third gen­er­a­tion is the way to sew that one togeth­er today. That was an easy one. That was like a slam dunk. All right, so today we’re talk­ing about, hey, some­one shared. I’m wor­ried that I’m micro­manag­ing my team. What should I do? I just love it when peo­ple are hon­est about it because micro­manag­ing is a fair­ly nat­ur­al ten­den­cy for lots of people.

03:32
Kevin Lawrence
I’ve seen it go the oth­er way. Many CEOs you work with are very strate­gic and they run almost so loose that it cre­ates chaos. The micro­man­agers run it so tight that it cre­ates a lot of unnec­es­sary or invalu­able fric­tion. The thing I want to say is if you think you’re a micro­man­ag­er, you like­ly are. It’s like with any growth oppor­tu­ni­ty we have becom­ing aware of it and then kind of admit­ting it as the first step and then you kind of get to work. All of us have ten­den­cies in that direc­tion. I know I can for sure.

04:10
Brad Giles
What’s fun­ny about it is we debat­ed the title of this episode and we said, should it be I’m a Micro­manag­ing Jerk? We’re like, no, because the lis­ten­er isn’t going to iden­ti­fy them­selves as being a jerk. Only the peo­ple around them will.

04:25
Kevin Lawrence
That’s exact­ly right. Most peo­ple want to admit it, but your peo­ple will tell you if you’re will­ing to lis­ten. So the idea real­ly what is micro­man­age­ment? Real­ly it’s about trans­fer­ence or where respon­si­bil­i­ty sits. You know you’re a micro­man­ag­er for sure. If the weight and the grav­i­ty of the respon­si­bil­i­ty of some­thing in your com­pa­ny or a depart­ment of divi­sion and a project, the think­ing relat­ed to it, the plan­ning, the sleep­less nights is almost the ulti­mate mea­sure as it relates to some­thing. If the sleep­less nights and all those prob­lems gen­er­al­ly keep flow­ing back up to you and all the ques­tions and all the prob­lems gen­er­al­ly, you’re prob­a­bly a micro­man­ag­er or you haven’t done full trans­fer­ence. If you ful­ly trans­fer respon­si­bil­i­ty to one of your team mem­bers, all of that sits with them. The plan­ning, the think­ing, the headaches, the sleep­less nights as a con­cept. The idea is, have you tru­ly hand­ed it off so they feel full respon­si­bil­i­ty and accountability.

05:41
Kevin Lawrence
If you haven’t been able to do that, there’s a chance that you’re still in their micro­manag­ing. Because you can say it all you want, but if you’re inter­fer­ing too much and they don’t feel full respon­si­bil­i­ty, either you haven’t trans­ferred or you’re micromanaging.

05:55
Brad Giles
Yeah, it’s deeply con­nect­ed to respon­si­bil­i­ty and account­abil­i­ty. The most suc­cess­ful Har­vard Busi­ness Review arti­cle of all time is called Who’s Got the Mon­key? Or it’s a deriv­a­tive, but it’s rough­ly Who’s Got the Mon­key? It’s about the con­cept of hav­ing mon­keys on your back, a mon­key being a metaphor for a prob­lem. Briefly, the sto­ry goes that the man­ag­er sits in his office all day and staff mem­bers come in and give him these mon­keys, these prob­lems. He spends all of his week tak­ing on these mon­keys and then he’s got this pack of mon­keys on his back. He’s like a mon­key col­lec­tor. It comes to Sat­ur­day at the end of the week and as he’s dri­ving into the office, he dri­ves past the golf course and he sees all of his sub­or­di­nates, all of his team mem­bers, out on the golf course play­ing golf while he’s going in there to solve that problem.

06:58
Brad Giles
Now, that might not be micro­manag­ing, but it’s a con­nect­ed sub­ject around responsibility.

07:07
Kevin Lawrence
The key is that peo­ple who are tru­ly effec­tive lead­ers, peo­ple will come in and try and hand the mon­key off to you, or we have anoth­er sto­ry of the hot pota­to, but the best ones hand it right back as. I shared an expe­ri­ence I had when I worked in the Mid­dle East going back some time ago, and in the role that I was in, it trans­lat­ed a lot because my client became very busy. One of the things that I learned is I had to get effec­tive at basi­cal­ly not being able to do any of the work or even facil­i­ta­tion. I need­ed to only ask ques­tions and cre­ate account­abil­i­ty. And that was all the risks. I could­n’t help. I could­n’t do it. I got used to sit­ting there real­ly think­ing, it’s almost like I can’t use my hands. I can’t help at all. I can only ask ques­tions to clar­i­fy and to cre­ate clar­i­ty and tension.

08:07
Kevin Lawrence
And that was it. I was unable, based on the time avail­able and the num­ber of com­pa­nies I was work­ing with, to do any­thing else. That’s what a good leader does that I was forced into it because of time scarci­ty. I had no choice. Good lead­ers do that even when they have choice, is they want to be help­ful. Real­ly they’re more of a coach or a guide or a sound­ing board to help oth­er peo­ple with their prob­lems. Basi­cal­ly, they help oth­er peo­ple with their mon­keys. The mon­keys nev­er climb onto the shoul­der of the exec­u­tive. It’s almost they’re Teflon coat­ed so the mon­keys could­n’t it is it’s true you watch effec­tive lead­ers do it, and it’s because their ego and their pride does not come from solv­ing oth­er peo­ple’s prob­lems. Their ego and their pride comes from see­ing oth­er peo­ple effec­tive and to sweat and to grow and become better.

09:04
Kevin Lawrence
There’s a dra­mat­i­cal­ly dif­fer­ent mind­set in that.

09:09
Brad Giles
There is. There is. Think about when a per­son starts in a job. If you’re the man­ag­er, a new hire starts and you want them to suc­ceed and you’re say­ing to them, well, if you’ve got any ques­tions, this is your job, your table, every­thing. If you got any ques­tions, don’t hes­i­tate. Just come and ask. And that’s a friend­ly wel­come. When do you turn that tap off? And some peo­ple nev­er do. By not turn­ing off that, what hap­pens is peo­ple will think to them­selves, oh, I’ll go and see what Kevin wants me to do. And that’s the begin­ning. They nev­er stop think­ing that unless you, let’s say, make them train them oth­er­wise. Unless you train them otherwise.

09:53
Kevin Lawrence
You almost like say­ing, hey, if your mon­key needs a snack, come on in. It’s like you’re invit­ing them to bring their mon­keys to you. It’s a beau­ti­ful ges­ture, and we all say it goes against being an effec­tive leader at some point, and that’s.

10:12
Brad Giles
How you end up micro­manag­ing. It’s a slip­pery slope.

10:16
Kevin Lawrence
Yes. And you don’t even real­ize it. And there’s a chap­ter in my book. Your oxy­gen mask first. It’s called stop being Chief Prob­lem Solver. The root of the chap­ter is we think we’re being help­ful. Our inten­tion is to help, but we’re load­ing up more work on our own plates, and our peo­ple are becom­ing less effec­tive. I was recent­ly with a com­pa­ny that I work with, and their COO won­der­ful, com­mit­ted, as smart as they get. The COO is so busy deal­ing and answer­ing chal­lenges and ques­tions and even answer­ing chal­lenges and ques­tions for peo­ple two lev­els down that they can’t do their work. And we had a meet­ing recent­ly. I’m just like, okay, I care about you. You’re a real­ly good per­son with beau­ti­ful inten­tions. You got to stop being so help­ful, because every­one comes to you. They’re afraid of mak­ing mis­takes, and they know if they come to you, includ­ing the direc­tor that reports to you, and they know that it derisks it if you answer it, but you’re get­ting buried, and then your peo­ple aren’t hav­ing to think.

11:27
Kevin Lawrence
Even though their intent isn’t to micro­man­age, they have trained peo­ple to bring the micro issues to them ver­sus mak­ing peo­ple account­able and only deal­ing with the macro or big­ger issues. It’s not a bad inten­tion, and they don’t know any dif­fer­ent. Right. A lot of times, peo­ple don’t know what great looks like. They don’t know that real­ly answer­ing a bunch of ques­tions makes you an inef­fec­tive leader or man­ag­er, that you should real­ly be train­ing your peo­ple to do it on your own.

12:00
Brad Giles
That’s real­ly inter­est­ing. I actu­al­ly read some­thing just on the week­end gone about the tran­si­tion from you will be work­ing, let’s say, with your brain or with your hands, and then as you esca­late your busi­ness all day, all you’re doing is mak­ing deci­sions. And.

12:21
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah, but that’s a low lev­el of leadership.

12:24
Brad Giles
That’s a low lev­el that’s not what we’re talk­ing about here.

12:28
Kevin Lawrence
That’s bad advice.

12:30
Brad Giles
I agree, and that’s why I’m rais­ing it, because that’s not what lead­er­ship is. Lead­er­ship is grow­ing the peo­ple around you. The only way that you can grow the peo­ple around you is by empow­er­ing them, hold­ing them account­able, get­ting them to own a sand­box, which they gen­uine­ly own, and then coach­ing them, ask­ing them a range of ques­tions. I remem­ber I had, I guess, a medi­um sized busi­ness, and I’d walk into the office after com­ing back from a meet­ing, and I’d look at all across all of the work­sta­tions, and about 15 to 20 peo­ple would put their eyes up over the work­sta­tion and be like, oh, he’s back. I can go and ask him. And it was a night­mare. And I set that prob­lem up. This was many years ago, before I learnt things like mon­keys, but it was such a valu­able les­son. I switched it over and I said at all of my meet­ings, we would have struc­tured meet­ings with peo­ple and all I would do would ask questions.

13:28
Brad Giles
If my dia­logue did­n’t answer sor­ry, did­n’t end with a ques­tion, then I was­n’t doing my job. That’s how I switched from suf­fer­ing this micro man­age­ment nurse over to leader as a coach.

13:43
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah, it’s a great exam­ple. When we do a lot of lead­er­ship team assess­ments and com­pa­ny health checks, one of the things we use is an assess­ment we pulled out of some of Collins’­work. One of the ques­tions is, does the team leader spend a lot of time dis­cussing and shar­ing ideas, or do they use more of a Socrat­ic style, ask­ing pri­mar­i­ly ques­tions? Con­trary to Hol­ly­wood, the best CEOs and exec­u­tives ask a hand­ful of impor­tant ques­tions and meet­ings. They’re not doing a lot of talk­ing and telling. It reminds me gosh, prob­a­bly when about ten years ago, I was at a con­fer­ence and I’m sit­ting at the table at the back. I like, sit­ting at the back just to take it all in. There’s this guy at my table and we’re talk­ing, we’re hav­ing great con­ver­sa­tions about par­ent­ing and life. Turns out he was one of the keynote speak­ers and his name was David Marquette.

14:37
Kevin Lawrence
He wrote a book called Turn to Ship­per. I did­n’t know I don’t know if I told you this sto­ry, Brad, but no, I was sit­ting with him the whole two day con­fer­ence, and I think he was the end of day one or two, and he gets, oh, I got to go speak now. And I go, real­ly? Yeah. What are you talk­ing about? Need to talk about lead­er­ship. He was the best speak­er of that con­fer­ence. High­est rat­ed, just unbe­liev­able. In the book Turn the Ship Around, it’s about lead­ing a sub­ma­rine cap­tain, and in their prac­tice drills because he did­n’t under­stand the spe­cif­ic type of nuclear sub he was put on. He was trained on a dif­fer­ent one. He gave bad orders and would have killed every­one. Thank­ful­ly, it was a sim­u­la­tor and they did­n’t. He went on to devel­op a mas­ter­ful lead­er­ship style which was dif­fer­ent than the Navy had.

15:23
Kevin Lawrence
It was based on train­ing peo­ple, your team, to come to you and say, I intend to so peo­ple not com­ing with prob­lems or things that are already done until you build up enough trust and rap­port, but telling what they intend to do. He said he had two options. You say excel­lent. Pro­ceed if it made com­plete sense to him, or have you con­sid­ered X, Y, or Z? Not all that isn’t going to work because now you’re going to dri­ve your peo­ple crazy. It’s, have you con­sid­ered this, have you con­sid­ered that? Just to under­stand their think­ing and see­ing if their think­ing had kind of real­ly thought through the issues. It was a game chang­er, made all the dif­fer­ence in the world. Ten of his peo­ple went on to lead ten of the Navy nuclear subs that exist in the US. I think there was 20 some­thing, I believe.

16:19
Kevin Lawrence
The point of it is, I remem­ber that moment I met him and he showed lots of oth­er amaz­ing things. Most of the CEOs I worked with time had them read the book and many of them use it. If you’re micro­manag­ing, you can be giv­ing spe­cif­ic details and get­ting deeply involved. Instead, have them come with rec­om­men­da­tions in the form of intent to and that elim­i­nates a lot of it and helps you to build bet­ter habits and your team also to get smarter and stronger.

16:51
Brad Giles
Yeah, that’s a slow burn, that book. What I mean by that is it came out but I find that it’s still very suc­cess­ful. It’s one of those few books that have just made I don’t know the sales num­bers, but it just keeps on pop­ping up like good to great many years after this release. It just keep because it’s such time­less, pro­found wis­dom that just res­onates so well with the read­er. Love that book. Turn the ship around. By David Mar­quette. I remem­ber there was a CEO that I work with. She’s love­ly, very pur­pose dri­ven and very smart but did­n’t, I guess, come through the ranks tra­di­tion­al­ly, if that makes sense. In oth­er words, work­er, super­vi­sor, man­ag­er, exec­u­tive, CEO, like a tra­di­tion­al career. She strug­gled so much with micro­man­age­ment because she was just con­found­ed as to why peo­ple weren’t doing their job. And it was real­ly quite messy.

18:04
Brad Giles
She would scratch on the sur­face, find a prob­lem and then dig a bit deep­er and it would be com­plete­ly dif­fer­ent. Why she expect­ed. It was like every degree which she turned, she would be see­ing this stuff and it just under­mined her whole faith and why she should do things.

18:25
Kevin Lawrence
So.

18:27
Brad Giles
This was hap­pen­ing over and over again. We start­ed with the con­cept of who is the own­er, who is account­able, trans­fer­ring respon­si­bil­i­ty. We worked on job score­cards or role score­cards for the team, pre­dom­i­nant­ly. Built out so we under­stood what are you account­able for? What is the mea­sure of suc­cess? The KPI, what’s the sin­gle thing? The per­son knew what they owned, knew what they had to do. We played that out through week­ly meet­ings. Now, this does­n’t hap­pen quick­ly, right. You’re not going to be able to sell that by the end of the week. It was also on her to have the trust and vul­ner­a­bil­i­ty to be able to step back. But you can turn this stuff around.

19:16
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah. You’re mak­ing a real­ly good point there, Brad. The key here is for a lot of peo­ple, maybe a list of things that get in the way and cause peo­ple to micro­man­age even when they don’t want to. Some peo­ple can’t help them­selves. They’re such per­fec­tion­ists and they can’t han­dle any mis­takes. And that’s a big piece here. You got to be okay with peo­ple mak­ing non crit­i­cal mis­takes. That’s the only way peo­ple learn. Yeah, but at the root for a lot of peo­ple is the expec­ta­tions aren’t clear. That’s why you talk about the role score­card in your book on Board­ed. We use a lot of stuff out of the book top grad­ing as job score­cards, very sim­i­lar con­cepts. The key of it, the root is get­ting crys­tal clear on what the heck they’re sup­posed to do. I go back to it’s very easy. I’m work­ing with a new exec­u­tive team and it’s very easy to dial it in and to help get the team strong, tight and effec­tive and get bet­ter results.

20:15
Kevin Lawrence
We have to have clear finan­cial goals and know who’s account­able for what line items of the income state­ment. We have to have clear oper­a­tional KPIs for each depart­ment. Each of those exec­u­tives sit­ting around the table needs to have a list of oper­a­tional KPIs. They’re account­able for the com­pa­ny. Each of those exec­u­tives need to have a set of very clear goals that they are meant to deliv­er on every quar­ter. We need to do tal­ent reviews to have very clear goals around our peo­ple and how we are strength­en­ing and devel­op­ing our team. High per­form­ers, keep­ing engaged low­er per­form­ers, help­ing to be improved and mis­fit peo­ple that aren’t going to make it, help them find a job some­where else. Most com­pa­nies would be lucky to have one of those four. Lucky, espe­cial­ly when it gets down to a buy exec­u­tive lev­el. They might have the macro. When you’re head of sales and I know what I’m account­able for under PnL and we report on it, I got strong oper­a­tional KPIs and we see those every week.

21:16
Kevin Lawrence
I got clear quar­ter­ly goals and those are being reviewed every cou­ple of weeks, every month, and I deliv­er on those. I’ve got goals for the devel­op­ment of my team. I mean, once those goals are set and clar­i­fied and all that can be done at a quar­ter­ly meet­ing, the head of sales man­ag­er just needs touch base and trou­bleshoot. You’re touch­ing base against those clear out­comes that must be deliv­ered. When you have that, it’s like it makes being a CEO way eas­i­er or being a leader way eas­i­er because the expec­ta­tions are so clear and then you see if the per­son pro­duces. A lot of peo­ple are weak on that. As a result, because it’s not clear and because the peo­ple can’t real­ly self man­age and self report, there’s a lot of inter­ven­tion which might actu­al­ly be log­i­cal if it’s not clear what the per­son is sup­posed to do.

22:06
Kevin Lawrence
Not good, but logical.

22:08
Brad Giles
I remem­ber you just made the com­ment there makes the job of a CEO much eas­i­er. I remem­ber when I was writ­ing my first book, made to Thrive the Five Roles of a CEO. We’d imple­ment­ed that into one of the teams, and specif­i­cal­ly a lot of this stuff we’re talk­ing about today. He pulled me aside and he whis­pered and he said, I don’t real­ly know what I’m sup­posed to do now because I’ve got like this, I’ve got all of these cogs work­ing real­ly well. We spoke about the five rolls and all of the stuff around there. Yeah, once you get this stuff work­ing, it’s the oppo­site of being a micro­man­ag­er, where you’re com­ing in on a Sat­ur­day with a dozen mon­keys on your back. You’re the one that has that lev­el of free­dom. That’s what we’re try­ing to achieve.

22:57
Kevin Lawrence
Yes. One of the guys actu­al­ly joined our team. He was with a pri­vate equi­ty firm and that were doing a bunch of work with. And he loves doing the con­sul­tant. He joined us as one of our con­sul­tants. He goes, what you guys have in your firm, you’ve got an amaz­ing man­age­ment sys­tem that makes it eas­i­er to be a CEO. Instead of micro­man­age­ment, we have a man­age­ment sys­tem, which you and I brought you. We and I use the same tools with our clients and it makes it way eas­i­er. Let’s just look at a few things here. We got a cou­ple of min­utes left today. At the root of micro­man­age­ment caus­es is some­times peo­ple just have bad habits. Read­ing that book like turn­er­ship around or look­ing in a mir­ror will help. Some­times peo­ple have bad role mod­els. They learn from some­one and they think it’s the right way, or they watch too much TV and see bad exam­ples in the past when that was exact­ly not recently.

23:54
Kevin Lawrence
Of course you touched on this, but is that they don’t trust their team. And there’s two ver­sions of that. Don’t trust them and they’re capa­ble, or don’t trust them and they’re not capa­ble. It’s fas­ci­nat­ing when we go into com­pa­nies, I can’t tell by just talk­ing to them, unless I do a full deep review of them or inter­view with them, but we assume that they are capa­ble and we lay down clear finan­cial goals, KPIs actu­al goals or goals to imple­ment the strat­e­gy and goals around the team. We just see what they pro­duce over a cou­ple of quar­ters. We give them the oppor­tu­ni­ty to show and let them prove through results because it’s hard to know, and some­times the CEOs and lead­ers don’t. We already talked about train­ing the team to be the answer to Spencer, and then we also talked about not hav­ing clear expec­ta­tions to have peo­ple self managed.

24:48
Kevin Lawrence
The root of it is, it’s not nec­es­sar­i­ly just because you’re an under­skilled per­son. You might not have the right peo­ple, you might not have the right clear sys­tems for account­abil­i­ty or man­age­ment sys­tem. It just makes it a lot harder.

25:02
Brad Giles
Yeah, it does. It real­ly starts with the first ques­tion that we pose today where is the respon­si­bil­i­ty? If you don’t have the sys­tem, if you don’t have the right peo­ple, once you begin the jour­ney of trans­fer­ring that respon­si­bil­i­ty ful­ly and accept­ing the fail­ure that may come of that, you’ve got to allow peo­ple the oppor­tu­ni­ty to fail. That’s when you’re able to real­ly move the nee­dle on this prob­lem of micro­man­age­ment. So, a cou­ple of resources here. We Spoke About Mul­ti­pli­ers by Liz Wise­man we Spoke About Turn the Ship Around by David Mar­quis Har­vard Busi­ness Review arti­cle Who’s Got the Mon­key? For the Growth Whis­per­ers pod­cast, episode 49, are you a genius with 1000 helpers? If so, how do you become a lev­el five leader? That’s a very sim­i­lar and relat­ed book. Also in Kev­in’s book, your oxy­gen mask. First, are you the chief prob­lem solver or how can you stop being that?

26:10
Brad Giles
Good chat today, Kev, good chat. You want to close us out today?

26:15
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah, just so thanks every­one for lis­ten­ing. This is the growth. Whis­pers. We are the growth whis­per­ers. We love growth, endur­ing growth. I’m Kevin here in Van­cou­ver and that’s Brad down in Perth, Aus­tralia. We both have excel­lent week­ly newslet­ters. We both believe that about each oth­ers and obvi­ous­ly our own. They share just good resources with you and you can get our newslet­ter through our web­sites, which I’ll share in a minute. If you haven’t sub­scribed to the pod­cast, please do and share with some­one else you think that would enjoy it the video ver­sions on YouTube. Just search The Growth Whis­per­ers. Brad is avail­able at evo​lu​tion​part​ners​.com​.au and I am avail­able at lawrence​and​co​.com. Have a won­der­ful week and I hope you can real­ly let your­self off the hook around the micro­man­age­ment and put the tools, sys­tems and peo­ple in place, so you can be a leader and be freed up to do big­ger, more impact­ful things.

27:08
Kevin Lawrence
Have a great week.