Podcast Ep 153 | Liz Wiseman’s Multipliers - how the best leaders make everyone smarter

Liz Wise­man is an ex ora­cle exec­u­tive who wrote an amaz­ing book about how we all have moments as lead­ers where we acci­den­tal­ly dimin­ish team mem­bers and ​‘shut down’ their smarts, mak­ing our peo­ple less capa­ble. What makes it worse, is that our intent is usu­al­ly to be help­ful and sup­port­ive, and yet it has the oppo­site impact.

She breaks out the dif­fer­ence between the behav­iours we have that mul­ti­ply the intel­li­gence of our team (and poten­tial­ly fam­i­ly mem­bers too) and those that dimin­ish their capa­bil­i­ty and intel­li­gence. You can under­stand the acci­den­tal dimin­ish­er traits, and where you can improve, and then, you can under­stand how to mul­ti­ply the capa­bil­i­ty of your team members. 

This week we’re talk­ing about the Mul­ti­pli­ers con­cept from Liz Wise­man, and how it can apply to you as a leader.

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

00:13
Kevin Lawrence
Hel­lo, and wel­come to the Growth Whis­per­ers Pod­cast, where every­thing that we talk about is about build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies. Kevin Lawrence here in Van­cou­ver, British Colum­bia, Cana­da. Here with my awe­some pod­cast part­ner, Brad Giles down in Perth, Aus­tralia. Brad, how is your world today?

00:31
Brad Giles
Good day, Kev. Every­thing is doing well here. Every­thing is great. Life is good, except for one thing. There’s one thing that grinds my gears, and I don’t know, I can’t even wait till you ask me. What’s the word of the day? Man, I just got to get into this.

00:50
Kevin Lawrence
You got to tell me. You got to tell me. I’m wait­ing. The antic­i­pa­tion that I’m feel­ing as you’re shar­ing this with me is just I’m.

01:00
Brad Giles
Just try­ing to low­er my blood pres­sure so I could talk about it, ? Have you ever had an unso­licit­ed cal­en­dar invite? Now, this is a bit of a nerdy kind of a thing, right? Let’s say you met some­one a year ago, or maybe you haven’t spo­ken to them in months and months. There’s no email. There’s no phone calls, no SMS text. Out of the blue, there’s a cal­en­dar invite that appears for a time that you’d nev­er dis­cussed meet­ing on. I don’t know. That’s the height of rudeness.

01:36
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah. It’s like show­ing up to some­one’s house and not even knock­ing on a door, but just invit­ing your­self in, and you’re a stranger to them.

01:43
Brad Giles
Yeah, I had one.

01:45
Kevin Lawrence
I had one. It was very weird. I’m like, what are you doing?

01:49
Brad Giles
I know. Don’t do it. All right, so I’ve kind of sub­vert­ed the whole episode intro, but I just had to get that off my chest, and I feel bet­ter now.

02:00
Kevin Lawrence
Well, I will tell you, if we’re going to go down, I had a dif­fer­ent one, but you’ve inspired me with a frus­tra­tion, and that’s bad sales­peo­ple. Now, I have a bit of a his­to­ry of I love noth­ing more than an amaz­ing sales­per­son. It’s actu­al­ly quite dan­ger­ous, because if I get going with a great sales­per­son, I can end up buy­ing four X, what I went in for with­out a great sales­per­son, because they’ll iden­ti­fy me. We’re look­ing for a new coach for my place here. Went and this sales­per­son, and they just they’re like, well, jeez, yeah, you have real­ly good taste. They start say­ing all of these things to real­ly try to schmooze me. Gen­er­al­ly my instant inside goes to anger and attack. Like, I remem­ber years ago, I had some­one that said, kevin, why are you such an a******? And like, what are you talk­ing about?

03:06
Kevin Lawrence
It was gen­er­al­ly they’re always com­mis­sioned sales­peo­ple in a retail envi­ron­ment, and I’m sure they’re under lots of pres­sure, right. They eat based on their abil­i­ty to sell. Yeah, but it was every­thing I could do with all of my skills to calm myself and to not be rude. And I was fun­ny. I asked my son, he was here for din­ner last night and like, hey, what do about me? When there’s a cheesy sales­per­son, he goes, oh, yeah, you’re a jerk. It’s just kind of known. It’s like the per­son was doing their job, but they were approach­ing me in a way where it was false flat­tery. It’s every­thing I have with­in myself to not be rude or like to be rude unless it’s tru­ly earned. That’s not earned. That per­son­’s not get­ting in my face about some­thing. Any­ways, so false flat­tery, I guess I would call it.

04:07
Kevin Lawrence
And even now I get riled up. Like I got to call because you talked about your blood almost boil­ing. I had to call myself. It took me an hour after­wards and we bought the coach. I got the coach. It’s just I don’t know, there’s some­thing prob­a­bly need to talk to ther­a­pist about. It my psy­chol­o­gy, but it just fires me up. False flat­tery. Yes. Any­way, so we’re not talk­ing about false flat­tery today. We got more applied stuff.

04:35
Brad Giles
Indeed.

04:36
Kevin Lawrence
We are talk­ing about the impact you have on peo­ple. Hey, those two sto­ries were about impact, and this is about our impact as lead­ers and how and again, like that sales­per­son, that per­son did not intend. They were try­ing to have a pos­i­tive impact on me. They tru­ly were in their heart, and they thought they were being nice.

05:00
Brad Giles
Yeah.

05:00
Kevin Lawrence
They did­n’t real­ly real­ize the impact it had on me. Again, maybe I’m weird and I got weird glitch­es in my brain. I’m not so much blam­ing them. This is a book that we both know and love and a woman that we know is amaz­ing. We both met her, and her name is Liz Weiss­man, who wrote this book called Mul­ti­pli­ers that just explod­ed my brain. We’re going to dig into this here today. Yeah. Why it’s so pow­er­ful and why it’s crit­i­cal. And it’s on our must read list. It’s right up there for those who want to be doing book­shelf, right in the top cor­ner, right beside Win­ston Churchill and Top Grad­ing and Jim Collins and Michael Porter, awe­some top read. That’s what we’re dig­ging into today, why it’s pow­er­ful and how you can lever­age the model.

05:51
Brad Giles
And, it’s endured as a book. I don’t know. It must be 1020 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, she released it. It’s endur­ing and it’s still real­ly res­onat­ing with peo­ple. I guess it’s time­less, a time­less con­cept, time­less ideas that just hits that note with peo­ple so well. The book again is called Mul­ti­pli­ers how the Best Lead­ers Make Every­one Smarter. I guess we’re real­ly just today dig­ging into about the book and our take and some of the take­aways that we’ve had and that we’ve used per­haps with clients.

06:33
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah. The root of it, let me all start with the kind of thing I met Liz at a con­fer­ence in Texas she was speak­ing at, and she did a spec­tac­u­lar job and she was a lot of fun. She hang out with us, there was prob­a­bly ten of us and she hung out with us in the lounge after we spent the whole group of us hung out the whole night and had great con­ver­sa­tions and shar­ing war sto­ries. She was awe­some and super grate­ful. I mean, obvi­ous­ly a huge fan and love her work and she’s a great human and she endorsed and she’s on the COVID of my book and the endorse­ment on the COVID of my book. You don’t get a big­ger fan than myself. And I know Brad, you’re there too.

07:10
Brad Giles
SIM she’s awesome.

07:12
Kevin Lawrence
She is. And her con­tent is sim­ple and pow­er­ful. After the ses­sion I was like, this is great. I went and did the assess­ment. I had more epipha­nies because in her book she talks about mul­ti­pli­er lead­ers who mul­ti­ply the intel­li­gence and capa­bil­i­ty of peo­ple. She talks about acci­den­tal dimin­ish­ers to kind of let us off the hook so we don’t feel so bad for doing it. I had a lot of acci­den­tal dimin­ish­ing behav­iors and the worst part about it, all, my intent, your intent were try­ing to be help­ful for those peo­ple around us. But, and, but we’re actu­al­ly like min­i­miz­ing their brain and min­i­miz­ing their capa­bil­i­ty unin­ten­tion­al­ly. And that’s the root of it. I’ve got good inten­tions on these things and I’m but hav­ing a bad, a good inten­tion, bad impact, it was just like, wow, then I learnt some okay, well, do this instead of that.

08:11
Kevin Lawrence
There’s choic­es in the moment that can make us much more impact­ful in a pos­i­tive sense.

08:17
Brad Giles
Maybe let’s go back to the begin­ning. Liz was an exec­u­tive at Ora­cle and she noticed it’s her sto­ry, but I’m doing a hack job of it. She noticed that some lead­ers would mul­ti­ply the capa­bil­i­ty of the peo­ple in their team and they would get so much more. Oth­er lead­ers, inverse­ly, the acci­den­tal dimin­ish­es that she lat­er coined, they would shut down the smarts. All of the great tal­ent in an orga­ni­za­tion, they would want to go and work for the per­son who had the rep­u­ta­tion. This is the boss that you got to get. They’re going to get the most out of you. They’re going to access your native genius, your best capa­bil­i­ty and then steer clear of that one. She kind of noticed these two very dif­fer­ent things, these dif­fer­ent types of peo­ple that emerge and that was the gen­e­sis for her think­ing, why is this? Doing all of the research and then ulti­mate­ly writ­ing this book.

09:26
Brad Giles
It’s, I guess born of her in the field observations.

09:32
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah. The thing that I found with this is that the mod­el of being a mul­ti­pli­er dimin­ish­er, it relates to us as a work and work as a leader, but it also relates to us as a human in our lives. The same behav­iors, like being too help­ful, min­i­miz­ing. The way I used it as a metaphor, it’s like if you have chil­dren, when your chil­dren are young, you tie their shoes. If you’re still tying their shoes at 14 years old, there’s a bit of a prob­lem. You’re hold­ing them back, and it’s not out of bad inten­tion. It’s just bad behav­ior or bad habits and for all kinds of rea­sons. Let’s get to the root of it. The root of it? What she found in her research when she dug in more is that the mul­ti­pli­er lead­ers actu­al­ly have a dif­fer­ent belief sys­tem than the dimin­ish­ers. Inter­est­ing, often the dimin­ish­ers are actu­al­ly smarter human beings.

10:33
Kevin Lawrence
That’s the prob­lem. See, a dimin­ish­er is incred­i­bly intel­li­gent, and their belief is peo­ple can’t fig­ure it out with­out me.

10:42
Brad Giles
Yeah. And that’s the trap, isn’t it?

10:45
Kevin Lawrence
It is. And there­fore they must inject them­selves. Basi­cal­ly, they believe the kids won’t be able to tie their shoes with­out me. They tie the shoes, and the truth is they are bril­liant shoe tires. They are. The prob­lem is it’s self ful­fill­ing because if they keep tying the shoes, the kids don’t even both­er try­ing any­more because they know dad’s going to tie them. So, see, I’m right. They can’t tie their shoes and the kids going, yeah, but if you gave me a chance, I prob­a­bly could fig­ure it out. You keep tying them, and if I don’t let you tie them, we’re going to have a fight. Yes. The dimin­ish­er tru­ly believes peo­ple can’t fig­ure it out with­out me. The mul­ti­pli­er is on the oth­er end of the scale. The mul­ti­pli­er I’m exag­ger­at­ing would be like when the kid is one years old and starts to walk.

11:40
Kevin Lawrence
I think they walk around one. From what I remem­ber. They’re like, go find your own shoes. I’m exag­ger­at­ing. They would be the par­ent that would have the kids tying the shoes soon after they could walk and move their fin­gers. Well, because they believe peo­ple are smart and can fig­ure things out.

12:00
Brad Giles
Yeah.

12:01
Kevin Lawrence
Just from that belief sys­tem, you’re going to have dra­mat­i­cal­ly dif­fer­ent behav­ior. It’s a hard shift because it’s a belief sys­tem shift.

12:12
Brad Giles
It’s the under­ly­ing assump­tion that’s not it’s not the per­fect anal­o­gy, but it’s not far. It’s, it illus­trates the point. If you have peo­ple who report to you, is your under­ly­ing assump­tion maybe even at the sub­con­scious lev­el, a, peo­ple can’t fig­ure it out with­out me, or B, peo­ple are smart and they can fig­ure it out because that under­ly­ing assump­tion inside your­self is what dri­ves all of these behav­iors. Now, maybe you are you might have only some acci­den­tal dimin­ish­er traits.

12:45
Kevin Lawrence
Sure.

12:46
Brad Giles
Right there’s. It’s not a bina­ry. It’s more of a spec­trum. Right.

12:51
Kevin Lawrence
Maybe you might have some and it’s sit­u­a­tion­al too.

12:55
Brad Giles
Yeah. I’ll move on.

13:00
Kevin Lawrence
No, the thing is not bina­ry. Peo­ple can be mul­ti­pli­er lead­ers with some and dimin­ish­es with oth­er. Peo­ple ask about Steve Jobs. There’s a lot of she had some con­nec­tion to Steve, I recall. I may be encrypt­ed, but I remem­ber the Job sto­ry that we talked about. Jobs was known to be a night­mare post leav­ing Apple, but the sec­ond time to be a notably more effec­tive and bet­ter leader to work for. The main thing, no, it was Jobs or it was Elli­son at Ora­cle, one of those two, because she worked at Ora­cle. It might have been Lar­ry Elli­son, but Liz said specif­i­cal­ly it was Lar­ry Elli­son. I watched him in meet­ings where he would be an amaz­ing mul­ti­pli­er to one per­son and turn around and a few min­utes lat­er be an amaz­ing dimin­ish­er to anoth­er, which we all do. Again, based on some­times there is peo­ple who aren’t capa­ble in their roles and it makes it harder.

13:59
Kevin Lawrence
It can be sit­u­a­tion­al even for some­one who, say, defaults to a mul­ti­pli­er. Most of the time they made in dif­fer­ent sit­u­a­tions or dif­fer­ent peo­ple diminish.

14:09
Brad Giles
Yeah. As a part of the work­shops that we run here with lead­er­ship teams for many years, we’ve asked this ques­tion of peo­ple in the lead­er­ship teams. Tell me, think about the best leader that you’ve ever worked under. It could have been a boss, it could have been even a sports coach, some­thing like that. What per­cent­age of your capa­bil­i­ty did they access? Give it a per­cent. The sec­ond ques­tion is, think about now the worst leader that you’ve ever served under and what per­cent­age of your capa­bil­i­ty did they access? I actu­al­ly tracked over many years the kind of aver­age, right? The aver­age was around 105% to 110% for the best lead­ers. Because what that means is that they were access­ing more than these peo­ple even think was pos­si­ble. On the down­side, it was around 30% to 35%. There’s this latent 65% to 70% of capa­bil­i­ty that peo­ple are like under that worst leader that I ever had, they weren’t access­ing 65% to 70% of what I was capa­ble of.

15:31
Brad Giles
The inverse, of course, again, was that the best leader I had, they got more out of me than I even thought was capable.

15:39
Kevin Lawrence
And that’s the key, right? That’s, that’s the kid that ties their shoes when they’re two or three ver­sus when they’re 1314. Again, exag­ger­at­ing. And I did the same thing. Brad, that was one of the things that Liz talked about. We asked group after group, and I got very sim­i­lar stats in the groups that did sub 50 and between 90 and 110 on the oth­er end for those that went over the 100% scale. And it was shock­ing. We’d ask the sto­ries and the most fas­ci­nat­ing thing, the mul­ti­pli­er lead­ers weren’t like their best friend. Beer, bud­dy, let’s go for a beer. Nec­es­sar­i­ly, they pushed them hard and some­times they did­n’t even have a lot of love for the per­son. It was­n’t that oh, you’re the best, and pos­i­tive. They chal­lenged them and threw them in sit­u­a­tions over their head. So, for exam­ple, one of my clients, his dad, in many ways, was like a mul­ti­pli­er, a bit of a dys­func­tion­al one, but he told him at 17 he’s in Nicaragua, hang­ing out of a heli­copter because he’s going to inspect oil plants, get­ting shot at by the rebels on the ground like that’s, throw­ing some­one in over the head.

16:56
Kevin Lawrence
Or the sto­ries of kids grow­ing up on the farm, learn­ing to dri­ve tuck trucks at nine years old and sit­ting on a box, an Apple box. You know, there’s things on that. We gen­er­al­ly found they chal­lenged and pushed them incred­i­bly. I go, for exam­ple, I know one CEO that I worked with and have worked with quite a bit for quite a few years. They were the most chal­leng­ing CEO I ever worked with, like, to the point where it was painful, like, painful. They made me become notably bet­ter at my craft. I was good and it hurt. It was so chal­leng­ing. But they mul­ti­plied me. There’s no two ways about it, that mod­el. And thanks for shar­ing that, Brad. The thing is, what’s the truth about the peo­ple that feel like their lead­ers get­ting 35% of them? You can share some of yours, I can share some mine.

17:57
Kevin Lawrence
What kind of things come out of those peo­ple’s mouth where they feel like their leader got 35% out of them?

18:02
Brad Giles
Well, do it my way. This is how you do it. Do this. They don’t stretch the peo­ple, because let’s go back to the under­ly­ing assump­tion. Peo­ple can fig­ure it peo­ple can’t fig­ure it out with­out me.

18:15
Kevin Lawrence
Yes.

18:15
Brad Giles
Okay. That means that I’ve got to pull the resources and con­trol the deci­sions because they can’t fig­ure it out. Again, the oppo­site assump­tion, peo­ple are smart and can fig­ure things out. There’s a con­cept in the book called Native Genius. I think we may have already men­tioned it once or twice. The first time I came across it, I was like, yeah, that’s good. The con­cept broad­ly is that the mul­ti­pli­ers iden­ti­fy the native genius. The thing that an indi­vid­ual is native­ly intu­itive­ly, let’s say, at their DNA lev­el, a genius at, right. They just can’t help. They are a genius at this par­tic­u­lar thing, what­ev­er that is, and then they dri­ve that real­ly hard. There’s this com­pa­ny called Apsumo here in Aus­tralia, and what they did is they iden­ti­fied native genius for the pow­er that it is now. I’d seen it, and I had begun using it with lead­ers ask­ing ques­tions like, so, Kevin, you’re talk­ing about Andrea, who works in your team and your chal­lenge around her at the moment.

19:35
Brad Giles
What’s her native genius? That’s the kind of the sim­ple coach­ing stuff that we’d be doing around that con­cept. What App­Sumo did is they took it to a much fur­ther lev­el, and they looked for Native Genius and they with­in a score­card and in their hir­ing process. They would say we need a role as a prod­uct devel­op­ment man­ag­er or what­ev­er it is. This is the Native Genius that we’re look­ing for in that role. And it was real­ly cool.

20:04
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah, it’s awe­some. It’s a great con­cept. Native genius ties into strengths like Mar­cus Buck­ing­ham’s. Work around strengths, find­er just where do you thrive nat­u­ral­ly? A cou­ple of oth­er exam­ples on this, tap­ping into the mod­el so she gets down into spe­cif­ic kind of oppo­site approach­es or behav­iors that these lead­ers have. One of them is the Lib­er­a­tor ver­sus the tyrant. These are sub behav­iors that lib­er­ates peo­ple’s think­ing ver­sus the tyrant. I’ll read the words for tyrant cre­ates a tense envi­ron­ment that crush­es peo­ple’s abil­i­ty to think and per­form. They cre­ate anx­i­ety, so peo­ple act cau­tious­ly and are afraid to speak up. So it’s inter­est­ing. One of the com­pa­nies and CEOs I advised, they had an advi­sor doing some work with their lead­er­ship team who was an absolute tyrant, like yelling, cre­at­ing fights, embar­rass­ing peo­ple in the meet­ing. The CEO is telling me about this and I start­ed giv­ing some advice on how to straight­en out this con­sul­tant they were work­ing with.

21:13
Brad Giles
Yeah.

21:13
Kevin Lawrence
At the end of the day, what he told me is peo­ple were upset at breaks, peo­ple were cry­ing, peo­ple did­n’t want to come to the meet­ings any­more, whether the con­sul­tant might have been right about the things that they were say­ing. I worked with that same team and the team had a lot of weak­ness­es. It was a messy team. I coached him and said, kevin, can I just get you to come in and just can you just straight­en this out?

21:38
Brad Giles
Yeah.

21:38
Kevin Lawrence
So he fired the con­sul­tant. I came in, it was easy. All I did and I’ve learnt how to be a very good Lib­er­a­tor. I could still be a tyrant once in a while, but I default is that you set up a room phys­i­cal­ly, emo­tion­al­ly, set­ting it up to have healthy debates and with­out any prompt­ing at the end of the ses­sion. The last time we did the team goes, what? This is the best debates we’ve ever had. We’re hav­ing debates, which inter­est­ing­ly is clar­i­fy­ing goals and mak­ing the team more account­able. We’re actu­al­ly mak­ing them have to step up in their per­for­mance. By just hav­ing healthy debates, the teams com­ing togeth­er, the ideas are float­ing out and we can’t help but do bet­ter things. What about but it’s about know­ing how to set a room and set up dis­cus­sions and keep it in a healthy tone and healthy dynam­ic that more and more good stuff comes in ver­sus peo­ple being afraid to speak up.

22:39
Brad Giles
Yeah. So you explained the tyrant. That’s a dimin­ished trait. The inverse of that is the Lib­er­a­tor, where they cre­ate an intense envi­ron­ment that demands peo­ple’s best per­for­mance. They cre­ate sta­bil­i­ty so peo­ple are free to think, act bold­ly, focus on their work, which is what you’re say­ing. With­in the book, and we’re not nec­es­sar­i­ly going to dive into all of these, but with­in the book, Liz iden­ti­fies these key traits that are inverse on each kind of side. It’s a bit like the why is a per­son a dimin­ish­er and shut­ting down the smarts? Or why are they mul­ti­ply­ing the capa­bil­i­ty of people.

23:17
Kevin Lawrence
Right. The key words in this thank you, Brad, for clar­i­fy­ing that, is that the lib­er­a­tor cre­ates an intense environment.

23:24
Brad Giles
Yeah.

23:25
Kevin Lawrence
Where the tyrant cre­ates a tense envi­ron­ment. The tyrant almost the ener­gy is scary. Where the lib­er­a­tor cre­ates ener­gy that pulls you up and helps to expect bet­ter. And it’s sub­tle­ty. The oth­er ones is the debate mak­er ver­sus deci­sion mak­er. Basi­cal­ly, deci­sion mak­ers force deci­sions in the room and then every­one else has sec­ondary debates after­wards and sab­o­tages it exag­ger­at­ing a bit.

23:55
Brad Giles
The thing that I hear one of the most times about the mul­ti­pli­ers book and assess­ment is when peo­ple dig into it, they read the book, they do the assess­ment and then you hear them after it say, oh my God, I’m a dimin­ish­er. I’ve got so many dimin­ish­er traits. And it’s like an epiphany. It’s like they just it just explains so many of the chal­lenges that I expe­ri­ence. I did­n’t real­ly get it in terms of assess­ments. I’m a bit skep­ti­cal about some assess­ments, as you and I have spo­ken about before, care. That’s what I like about this assess­ment in par­tic­u­lar is that it very clear­ly says you’re not allow­ing peo­ple to speak up or what­ev­er it is. It’s very clear around that rather than say­ing you’re a scor­pio or what­ev­er it might be to move it sil­ly with that.

24:58
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah. It makes it real­ly easy to see it and you can’t help but see it in the future. To fin­ish the thought and thanks for jump­ing in there, deci­sion mak­ers will make the deci­sion and force it and then peo­ple haven’t had a chance to say their piece and more like­ly to sab­o­tage it. Where the best are debate mak­ers. They set up the table for debates to hear ideas and they gen­er­al­ly make bet­ter deci­sions, nev­er mind hav­ing bet­ter buy in. The debate mak­er is lever­ag­ing peo­ple’s brains con­tin­u­al­ly. All these ones are lever­ag­ing peo­ple’s brains and help­ing to expect more. So we can go on. The book is out­stand­ing. The mod­els are sim­ple. She has a list of start­ed to sticks in a new updat­ed book. It’s nine acci­den­tal dimin­ish­er per­sonas which I can res­onate with lots of them, but it gives some spe­cif­ic exam­ples of things.

25:50
Kevin Lawrence
It’s out­stand­ing book. We rec­om­mend it to all lead­ers. I think it’s must read on our lead­er­ship path and once you see it’ll be with you for­ev­er. Yeah.

26:01
Brad Giles
We love it and we rec­om­mend it. Espe­cial­ly if you’ve got a per­son who reports to you and you’re a bit like why are they strug­gling with their team? It’s real­ly sim­ple to either get them to read the book, watch one of Liz’s YouTube videos, or even do the assess­ment, and that can unlock their under­stand­ing. EQ. Inward look­ing, if that makes sense.

26:25
Kevin Lawrence
You bet.

26:26
Brad Giles
Awe­some. Good chat. So check it out. Mul­ti­plies by Liz Wise­man I hope you’ve enjoyed the episode today. It’s been a good chat and we start­ed off on a dif­fer­ent note, hav­ing a bit of a com­plaint, but that’s okay. If you would like to see our smil­ing faces, of course we’re on YouTube. Just search the growth whis­per­ers. Kevin and I both have week­ly newslet­ters. Kevin is pret­ty cool and mine is pret­ty cool as well, I guess you might say. Dig­ging into inter­est­ing top­ics that kind of relate to all the stuff we’re talk­ing about here. You can find Kev­in’s at Lawrence​and​co​.com and you can find mine Brad@​evolutionpartners.​com.​au of course, if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, please click the like but­ton. We love to get reviews. Every time we get reviews, we see a spike in our pop­u­lar­i­ty, which mat­ters. The algo­rithms feed on that stuff. So do like it, check us out.

27:29
Brad Giles
We would love to have you join us again next week. Have a great week. Bye.