Podcast Ep 159 | The most important number that CEOs rarely measure

What if the most impor­tant num­ber and pre­dic­tor of long-term suc­cess was also a num­ber that you did­n’t mea­sure or even man­age deci­sions based on it?

Unfor­tu­nate­ly, it’s a sit­u­a­tion that is quite com­mon today.

The accu­mu­la­tion of many seem­ing­ly small (and large) invest­ment deci­sions that lead­ers make leads to the pri­ma­ry mea­sure of a CEO — return on invest­ed cap­i­tal. How much cap­i­tal has been invest­ed in your busi­ness, and what’s the return on that? Some of the most suc­cess­ful CEOs of all time have been pri­mar­i­ly guid­ed by this measure. 

Ensur­ing that these deci­sions are well-con­sid­ered and actu­al­ly cre­ate high-impact results is where lead­ers should focus.

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

00:13
Brad Giles
Hi there. Wel­come to The Growth Whis­per­ers, where every­thing that we talk about is build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies. My name is Brad Giles, and today I’m joined by my co host, Kevin Lawrence in Van­cou­ver, Cana­da. G’day Kevin. How are things today in your part of the world?

00:28
Kevin Lawrence
They’re good. It’s dark, it’s the end of the day, but we’re com­ing into our spring and our win­ter, and it’s get­ting excit­ed. We had actu­al­ly the oth­er day we had like a lit­tle sam­ple of spring and it was real­ly excit­ing. Some­times when it hap­pens, we’re like, is this real? Is this not real? But yeah, it was real. So, yeah, we’re into the best sea­son of where we live. Well, like a lot of places, the.

00:54
Brad Giles
Sum­mer­time, I reck­on sea­sons are just the right amount of time. After 90 days, you’re ready to move on.

01:03
Kevin Lawrence
Yeah, I would sug­gest if there’s a lit­tle nov­el­ty and it’s awe­some. Although I’m nev­er quite I don’t need sum­mer to move on. I think sum­mer could extend longer than it does here in where we are in Van­cou­ver. It’d be nice if it extend­ed, but hey, we live where we choose to live, where our fam­i­lies chose to live would be anoth­er way of look­ing at it, but yes.

01:24
Brad Giles
Yeah, that’s true. Tell me, we like to start with a word or phrase of the day. What might be on your mind this morn­ing? Kev.

01:33
Kevin Lawrence
Per­spec­tive. Per­spec­tive is the word and from so many things, the most impor­tant thing as lead­ers and humans is to be able to have the right per­spec­tive in dif­fer­ent sit­u­a­tions. And there’s infi­nite per­spec­tives you can have. When you have the right per­spec­tive, it enables you to gen­er­al­ly do the right things and to gen­er­al­ly feel good about the things that you’re doing. Per­spec­tive abil­i­ty to shift your per­spec­tive or have per­spec­tive on your per­spec­tive, but it’s real­ly to see things from out­side your­self from a big­ger pic­ture view. It’s impor­tant to just every­thing and how impor­tant it is and how I appre­ci­ate things that allow me to be able to have so many dif­fer­ent per­spec­tives on issues through the oth­er great peo­ple I’ve worked with and the things that I’ve learned.

02:29
Brad Giles
Yeah, awe­some. So for me, it would be multiply.

02:34
Kevin Lawrence
Now, think­ing in addi­tion nine times nine.

02:40
Brad Giles
Yeah, very much so. Think­ing about peo­ple and their capa­bil­i­ty and real­ly you’re mul­ti­ply­ing their capa­bil­i­ty. It’s of the Liz Wise­man stuff.

02:53
Kevin Lawrence
Okay.

02:54
Brad Giles
Yeah. Some­one does­n’t have the capa­bil­i­ty, they’re at zero or close to zero. You don’t have a lot to actu­al­ly mul­ti­ply. Mak­ing sure that peo­ple are capa­ble of suc­ceed­ing in the role, that they under­stand how to suc­ceed in the role and that they want to suc­ceed in the role, that’s the raw mul­ti­pli­er that we have as lead­ers that we’re try­ing to work with. If those num­bers aren’t there, you don’t have much to mul­ti­ply against.

03:24
Kevin Lawrence
I like that. So you can take. I like that. Okay, I’m not even going to try and push smash those togeth­er. Let’s get into what we’re talk­ing about today. Speak­ing of mul­ti­pli­ca­tion and per­spec­tive, what we’re talk­ing about today, the most impor­tant num­ber that CEOs rarely mea­sure, espe­cial­ly entre­pre­neur­ial CEOs, is their learn­ing because it’s almost a more advanced skill. Let’s call it an advanced per­spec­tive, and it’s a spe­cial type of mul­ti­pli­ca­tion. Real­ly what we’re get­ting into today is real­ly under­stand­ing return on cap­i­tal as a key mea­sure in busi­ness. It is con­sid­ered to be the num­ber one mea­sure of a CEO. For exam­ple, if Brad and I were each giv­en $10 mil­lion to build a com­pa­ny, and five years lat­er, brad is mak­ing $10 mil­lion a year off that ini­tial $10 mil­lion of cap­i­tal, and I’m mak­ing five. Brad has dou­ble the return on cap­i­tal at that point in time than I do.

04:28
Kevin Lawrence
He gets twice the juice from the fruit. He’s con­sid­ered to be a bet­ter CEO or bet­ter juicer or bet­ter at get­ting a return on cap­i­tal if he’s able to do that year after year. It’s not just how much you make, it’s how much you make based on how much cap­i­tal you are using to make it. Basi­cal­ly, if the return is the income state­ment, max­i­miz­ing the prof­itabil­i­ty divid­ed by the bal­ance sheet in sim­ple terms, or how much cap­i­tal you’re giv­en, it’s real­ly lever­ag­ing the income state­ment in con­text of the bal­ance sheet or mak­ing prof­it in con­text to how much cash you’re using to make that prof­it. And it’s a super impor­tant piece. We get so lost in prof­itabil­i­ty and so lost in what we’re doing, a lot of peo­ple don’t even look at it. That’s kind of what we’re dig­ging into a bit more about today.

05:25
Brad Giles
Makes me think about a state­ment that Peter Druck­er said that a man­ager’s job is to be effi­cient, but an exec­u­tive’s job is to be effec­tive. How do we oper­ate as effec­tive­ly as pos­si­ble with the cap­i­tal con­straints or with the cap­i­tal that we’re giv­en? That’s what it is. That’s what a great lead­er­ship team does. That’s what I like to say to the lead­er­ship teams that I work with. Ulti­mate­ly, every­thing comes down to giv­en the bal­ance sheet that you’re deliv­ered, all of the intel­lec­tu­al prop­er­ty, the assets, the cash, a great lead­er­ship team max­i­mizes the out­put from that. The return on that max­i­mizes the output.

06:14
Kevin Lawrence
In con­text of that ver­sus just max­i­miz­ing the out­put. That’s why a lot of times as com­pa­nies grow, exec­u­tives get so focused on prof­itabil­i­ty that it often real­ly hurts the cash flow or they end up using more cap­i­tal and they don’t real­ize it along the way. You actu­al­ly look at the return on cap­i­tal mea­sures, and it’s often on the weak side or the low side which we’ll get into. Before we do, if you haven’t sub­scribed yet to the pod­cast, please sub­scribe and share it with peo­ple right? This is episode 159. We’ve done this a cou­ple of times, and we’re shar­ing the best we have, and we’re hap­py for you to share it with oth­ers, but please sub­scribe, give it a rat­ing or a thumbs up if you haven’t just yet. One of the things to put in con­text, as we’re talk­ing about this, we got to remem­ber a busi­ness pro­duces prof­it based on an amount of cap­i­tal, and that’s called return on capital.

07:07
Kevin Lawrence
Well, you’re com­pet­ing against it because you could just take the cap­i­tal and throw it in the stock mar­ket. You could throw it in some old mutu­al fund or give it to invest­ment man­ag­er. You could buy a chunk of real estate or in today’s day and age, you could just leave it in your check­ing account and get a rea­son­able amount of inter­est. Unfor­tu­nate­ly, some peo­ple will bet­ter today leav­ing the cap­i­tal in their check­ing account, not in their busi­ness. What we want you to do is to learn and get per­spec­tives on mak­ing sure that not only should you not leave your cap­i­tal in a check­ing account or sav­ings account instead, or should you invest in a real estate or the stock mar­ket you are actu­al­ly deserv­ing of and are an opti­mal place for your and oth­er human oth­er peo­ple’s cap­i­tal. That’s kind of what we’re get­ting into, is that to real­ly make sure it’s an excep­tion­al place for your cap­i­tal to grow.

08:00
Kevin Lawrence
There’s a great book, and Brad and I talked about this in our Top books episode we did prob­a­bly five episode ago.

08:07
Brad Giles
Yeah.

08:07
Kevin Lawrence
What was that episode? I don’t remem­ber the name of that episode. Brad, if you hap­pen to we can call I do.

08:13
Brad Giles
Just use some filler words for a moment. Kev.

08:15
Kevin Lawrence
Okay. Do a lit­tle song and dance. Here he is. Come on. Go ahead, Brad.

08:24
Brad Giles
This is how pre­pared we are today, right? Episode 155 the Nine Books Every CEO Must Read It’s one of these top nine books.

08:32
Kevin Lawrence
Excel­lent, excel­lent. Top nine books. This is what it’s called, The Out­siders, and it’s eight uncon­ven­tion­al CEOs and their rad­i­cal­ly ratio­nal blue­print for suc­cess. 1 sec­ond here, the essence of the book is the ulti­mate mea­sure of a CEO’s per­for­mance is return on the pool of cash. They’re giv­en return on invest­ed cap­i­tal almost all but one of those CEOs you prob­a­bly haven’t heard of because they’re not in the lime­light. They’re not wor­ried about that. They’re grind­ing it out, pro­vid­ing unbe­liev­able returns for their share­hold­ers over time. And so it’s books called The Out­siders. It’s amaz­ing. It’s a game chang­ing book because it real­ly brings the return on invest­ed cap­i­tal to life. One of my clients india, we start­ed look­ing at this prob­a­bly four or five years ago, and we read this book, and we start­ed look­ing at the whole busi­ness through return on invest­ed cap­i­tal. We looked at it over­all, and then we start­ed look­ing at it by unit and then by investment.

09:37
Kevin Lawrence
It’s so steeped and deep in the DNA now we talk about it with every­thing. It’s part of every con­ver­sa­tion. Not even just myself and the three direc­tors, but at the exec­u­tive team lev­el, it’s part of our view. By the way, we found some things we real­ly did­n’t like, and we came up with some freak­ing bril­liant moves that we nev­er would have made before. We only found them and what were doing in the busi­ness. We did­n’t pay atten­tion. We found these lit­tle pock­ets of bril­liance, these pock­ets of spec­tac­u­lar return on invest­ed cap­i­tal, but they were coun­ter­in­tu­itive. Now that we under­stand it, we can bet­ter opti­mize it. And our strat­e­gy has evolved. There’s been a cou­ple of notable moves in our strat­e­gy because of our under­stand­ing this and because of our dri­ve for this, because we’re cre­at­ing a bet­ter busi­ness by pulling dif­fer­ent levers than we thought we would.

10:41
Brad Giles
Can you give us an exam­ple of a coun­ter­in­tu­itive idea?

10:46
Kevin Lawrence
Yes. Take a project that you’re going to do and you’re going to make a lot of mon­ey on and let’s get a part­ner involved with us. Let’s just say I’m mak­ing up these num­bers. These aren’t real num­bers, but sure, if were going to do a project and were going to make $20 mil­lion on it, let’s bring in a part­ner and only make ten, we’ll give them half the prof­it. That’s coun­ter­in­tu­itive. Wait a sec­ond. We’re going to give away half of our prof­it? Are you crazy? Are you blah, blah? Well, son, let’s do some math here. Let’s do some quick math. If we bring in a part­ner who puts up all of the mon­ey and we put up zero on a project that would pro­vide a boat of 40%, I’ll say this one, even 25% return on invest­ed cap­i­tal annu­al­ly, but we have no cap­i­tal in it.

11:51
Kevin Lawrence
If we put up all the cap­i­tal, we get 40%. If we put up, let’s just say almost no cap­i­tal, we get like a 14 mil­lion% return on invest­ed capital.

12:05
Brad Giles
That’s not bad.

12:06
Kevin Lawrence
We get half the prof­it with­out any cash. Do you under­stand now why we give away half? Sor­ry if I sound con­de­scend­ing, I’m just try­ing to play. The real­i­ty is it’s like, well, if you don’t put up any cap­i­tal but you still get half the return. D***, that’s good. By the way, in this mod­el, you also reduced your risk dra­mat­i­cal­ly. Not only do you so you get half the return, notably less than half the risk, and your return on invest­ed cap­i­tal just went to the moon.

12:44
Brad Giles
That’s good.

12:47
Kevin Lawrence
And that mod­el works. If you go do more projects, yeah. If you don’t and you have a whole bunch of cap­i­tal sit­ting on the side­lines, it does­n’t work because it enables you to do more with less risk and dra­mat­i­cal­ly bet­ter return.

13:03
Brad Giles
Love it. Love it. One of the inter­est­ing ideas here is that if you’re in the lead­er­ship team, either you’re the leader or you’re a lead­er­ship team mem­ber. You may think about com­pe­ti­tion as being the com­peti­tors who sell the same prod­uct, but one of the found­ing ideas here is that in actu­al fact, there is anoth­er com­pet­i­tive ele­ment, which is the return on cap­i­tal, on invest­ed cap­i­tal that the own­ers and or share­hold­ers are get­ting. Because they’re look­ing at this busi­ness and they’re say­ing, hang on, I could get 30% if I went with this oth­er invest­ment, and I’m only going to get 15% or what­ev­er num­ber it is if I keep this mon­ey in the busi­ness. There is anoth­er lay­er of com­pe­ti­tion that’s occur­ring at the share­hold­er lev­el because the share­hold­ers want to get the best return that we can. That they can, yes.

14:02
Kevin Lawrence
It’s a more advanced way of think­ing for a lot of busi­ness peo­ple. As a busi­ness gets big­ger, you need to think about it because there’s more cap­i­tal tied up in a busi­ness. There’s a whole oth­er piece of this, by the way. It’s not just about max­i­miz­ing returns, it’s about using less cap­i­tal. It’s about hav­ing less cap­i­tal inven­to­ry or in prod­ucts or locked up in a busi­ness. So there’s many levers to get here. The key thing, first thing, num­ber one, we get our five points is we like to have some points, but is you got to know your num­ber. You got to fig­ure out your num­ber which ties into .2 and get gran­u­lar, just like you would with prof­itabil­i­ty. You want to look at it by prod­uct or by loca­tion or by invest­ment or by what­ev­er it is your busi­ness is bro­ken up into. You real­ly want to know your num­ber and just know where you stand because again, your alter­na­tive is the stock mar­ket, a sav­ings account, a trea­sury bond or what­ev­er it hap­pens to be.

15:00
Kevin Lawrence
Obvi­ous­ly we want to out­per­form those dra­mat­i­cal­ly and good busi­ness­es con­sis­tent­ly pro­duce 20, 30% as a nice place to be and it should be 20 or 30% based on the risk in a lot of busi­ness­es, obvi­ous­ly there’s some that do way more and those are even bet­ter. I talked about that client and we found the one thing I want to tell you, though, is that it does flush out some ugly things. There’s some things when you start to look at it, and espe­cial­ly when you start to use this for deci­sion mak­ing, you real­ize that when you start to take into account the bal­ance sheet or cap­i­tal, some deci­sions just don’t make sense. You got to give your­self some per­mis­sion that hey, not every­thing needs to make com­plete sense finan­cial­ly. There’s room for we’ll call them pet projects or what­ev­er it hap­pens to be.

15:48
Brad Giles
Oh, gam­bles it is.

15:51
Kevin Lawrence
I mean, there’s some peo­ple that based on this in a stag­nant or low demand mar­ket, a lot of peo­ple would­n’t want to buy real estate if there’s not big appre­ci­a­tion right? If you’re in a mar­ket where there’s appre­ci­a­tion, it’s dif­fer­ent. So every­one’s got dif­fer­ent. It’s a bru­tal num­ber and it helps you make notably bet­ter decisions.

16:15
Brad Giles
Yeah, there’s one leader own­er that I work with, he works in the busi­ness. He owns the busi­ness as a sole own­er. He made the com­ment, what I do is I invest in real estate devel­op­ment, and then I take the mon­ey that I get from that and I invest it in this busi­ness. Now, that’s just a com­ment, and it was sup­posed to gain a laugh, but I don’t think that the lead­ers real­ly appre­ci­at­ed just how cut­ting it was about the fail­ure of the busi­ness to com­pete with the oth­er invest­ments that the leader had. And I think they just thought, ho. Yeah, that’s fun­ny. It’s been a tough mar­ket and some­thing else. It can be that this is the com­pe­ti­tion that we’re talk­ing about that we need to perform.

17:08
Kevin Lawrence
Yes. If your num­ber and get gran­u­lar on it, the next thing is to start to get report­ing on this. You see how your deci­sions play out and real­ly see how it play. Train­ing your team to under­stand it, that is crit­i­cal because a lot of peo­ple do not under­stand it. Some peo­ple bare­ly under­stand an income state­ment. To under­stand how it cor­re­lates to the bal­ance sheet or get­ting a return on cash, you got to train peo­ple on it, start report­ing on it. Your CFO often gets involved in help­ing to bring this to life. One of the orga­ni­za­tions that we did this in and done it many, but the CFO would run class­es, he would do cap­i­tal basics, and they would go and train peo­ple on this. They would show the mod­els, they would get them to work with some things to test it out. Basi­cal­ly even they did with all the execs and the senior lead­er­ship team and some of the man­agers just to start get­ting their mind around it so they could have eyes open to it.

18:07
Kevin Lawrence
When it was part of the report­ing, every­one could see it and under­stand it. I’ve already gave the exam­ple here of some of these ideas that start­ed to come out of the team, like, hey, let’s make sure we take on part­ners. Almost always take on part­ners because it dra­mat­i­cal­ly increas­es our return. As we shared before, it takes away a lot of the risk because.

18:31
Brad Giles
It’S all of the lit­tle deci­sions that we make along the way, all of the deci­sions that cre­ate that return. When you com­pound that over mul­ti­ple years, like you said at the begin­ning, that’s the dif­fer­ence between a good or a great out­put or return for the share­hold­ers. That’s kind of one of the rea­sons that we’re here, if not the main reason.

18:53
Kevin Lawrence
I read this great report. I won’t use the actu­al names, but there was two heavy equip­ment com­pa­nies in North Amer­i­ca which would be well known names by peo­ple that deal with heavy equip­ment. I read this report from ana­lyst on the two com­pa­nies and it got down to the core of it. They were both seen as being great, but One was con­sid­ered in the end and stock price reflect­ed it to be twice the com­pa­ny oth­ers were, even though they were the same size.

19:24
Brad Giles
Wow.

19:26
Kevin Lawrence
Because One had dou­ble the return on capital.

19:28
Brad Giles
Yeah.

19:29
Kevin Lawrence
The CEO of one had made a whole bunch of deci­sions that might look good and they were able to beat their chest and be proud of what they’re doing. The end of the day, the ulti­mate mea­sure. The one com­pa­ny, year on year, crushed the oth­er one in terms of return of cap­i­tal. Now, they were both com­pet­i­tive in the mar­ket and they both com­pete. They weren’t equal com­peti­tors, but they were both two big com­peti­tors. Yeah, but one was twice the effec­tive machine that the oth­er was from that lens. Mar­ket reflect­ed that and that’s that competition.

20:00
Brad Giles
There’s a busi­ness, the busi­ness that I work with, the own­ers own two busi­ness­es. They’re kind of some­what relat­ed and they look at one busi­ness and it’s got a cer­tain return and the oth­er busi­ness­es has a much low­er return. It’s hard to not say we need to invest more in the busi­ness that pro­duces a bet­ter return. It’s just mar­ket dynamics.

20:26
Kevin Lawrence
We had anoth­er one where we start­ed doing this. We looked at the prof­itabil­i­ty at a deep lev­el and return on invest­ed cap­i­tal. We had a 45 year old busi­ness and we had to shut down the part of the busi­ness that the whole thing was based on because when we looked at from a prof­itabil­i­ty and a return on invest­ed cap­i­tal per­spec­tive, the one we should­n’t have been in it five years ago. Now, it took a cou­ple of years to do it, a lot of change because were based on a cer­tain thing. The next busi­ness that were in was where the future was and it’s actu­al­ly where were even the present was, and we had to kill off the old busi­ness. And again, it’s fine. You don’t have to do these things overnight. When you start ana­lyz­ing it and it says, no, we got to make this work, okay, let’s try.

21:12
Kevin Lawrence
When you try to make it work and you can’t move the nee­dle and you see, you got to invest more cap­i­tal. By the way, just as a side note, there’s also why there’s a thing called the Cap­i­tal Light busi­ness. There’s cap­i­tal heavy, where you invest the cap­i­tal and you get the return on it. Cap­i­tal Light or asset Light sor­ry, asset Light, they call it, is when you’re almost bro­ker­ing things. So, for exam­ple, there’s a busi­ness I worked with in the US. Their Asset Heavy busi­ness­es, they had a whole fleet of ser­vice trucks run­ning around fix­ing equip­ment all around the US. That was the tra­di­tion­al busi­ness. The Asset Light one was some­one that says, I got an idea. I’ll go help out the Wal­marts of the world, they call us, and we’ll facil­i­tate the stuff get­ting fixed with all of these com­pa­nies across the coun­try that have all of these trucks.

22:07
Kevin Lawrence
It’s Asset Light, it’s bro­ker­ing and using oth­er peo­ple’s cap­i­tal that’s at work. Those Asset Light busi­ness­es get a very high val­u­a­tion some­times because there’s no cap­i­tal. There’s almost no cap­i­tal tied up. Some­one might have $100 mil­lion of trucks and equip­ment, and you’ve got a call cen­ter with some peo­ple on it. There’s oth­er ver­sions of it to go and dial in this num­ber. The idea here is, under­stand how you’re per­form­ing based on the cap­i­tal you’re using and to take it into account with all of your deci­sions, because all.

22:43
Brad Giles
Of those deci­sions com­pound over time to cre­ate some­times a mas­sive­ly dif­fer­ent out­put. Focus­ing on what is that out­put, and how are the deci­sions that I’m mak­ing today con­nect­ed to that? Or maybe even you have got some deci­sions that you need to make. Well, how is that going to con­tribute to your ROIC, your return on invest­ed capital?

23:06
Kevin Lawrence
Right. So, going back to the word per­spec­tive at the begin­ning that I was at the end of the day, this is a dif­fer­ent per­spec­tive to bring to your busi­ness. Many peo­ple are focused on their prof­itabil­i­ty or their EBIT­DA or their cash flow. And that’s good, and it’s of you. The oth­er is the return on cap­i­tal. Return on invest­ed cap­i­tal, which gives you a sec­ond, slight­ly more sophis­ti­cat­ed view to look at your busi­ness. All are good, but this gives you anoth­er dimen­sion to look at on your invest­ments and all of your deci­sions to help you build a bet­ter machine over time. You got to know where you stand and know your num­ber. Gran­u­lar­ly got to get some bet­ter report­ing and start to include it in deci­sions. You got to say no to a lot of stuff that stops work­ing and mak­ing enough to do it instant­ly, but your mod­el will con­tin­ue to piv­ot and change and hope­ful­ly get stronger and stronger.

23:59
Brad Giles
Very good.

24:00
Kevin Lawrence
Very good.

24:01
Brad Giles
Return on invest­ed cap­i­tal. It’s real­ly the thing that is, as we said at the title, it’s the most impor­tant num­ber that CEOs rarely mea­sure, but should mea­sure, because this can help to help you to make the right invest­ment deci­sions mov­ing for­ward, which is one of your key respon­si­bil­i­ties. Good. Hope that you’ve enjoyed the episode today. Make sure that you think about what’s your ROIC and how can you begin to uti­lize that in your busi­ness. A cou­ple of key points here. Get to know your num­ber today. Get Gran­u­lar. Just like with prof­itabil­i­ty by loca­tion, by prod­uct, by invest­ment. Make sure that you can track it as a busi­ness month­ly or quar­ter­ly, and get your team to under­stand it, and then put it when you’re mak­ing invest­ment deci­sions make. That one of the key cri­te­ria that you’re ana­lyz­ing. Say no to the things that no longer add up, and this will com­pound up over time.

25:05
Brad Giles
So, good chat today. Yeah. Hope­ful­ly we’ve giv­en you a bit of a dif­fer­ent insight through an account­ing lens, per­haps, but such an impor­tant lens. Hope­ful­ly you’ve been able to stick through this because this is what cre­ates the real results that we talk about, that help you to endure. So you can find us on YouTube. If you would pre­fer to see our smil­ing faces, that would be if you just search the Growth Whis­per­ers. You’ll find us there, obvi­ous­ly. We’d love for you to like and sub­scribe wher­ev­er you lis­ten, be it on audio or video. You can find Kevin and his inter­est­ing week­ly newslet­ter at lawrence​and​co​.com and myself and my inter­est­ing week­ly newslet­ter evo​lu​tion​part​ners​.com​.au, where we both dig into var­i­ous top­ics relat­ed to build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies. I hope that you have enjoyed the episode today and yeah, we cer­tain­ly have. We look for­ward to chat­ting to you again next week.

26:13
Brad Giles
Do enjoy your week. Take care.