Podcast Ep 54 | 7 Hidden Reasons Employees Leave

If you’re going to build a Peo­ple Mag­net Machine, a cul­ture in your busi­ness that attracts the right peo­ple, you must under­stand the real rea­sons why employ­ees leave their jobs.

Per­haps they tell you they leave for high­er pay, but the data does­n’t sup­port that in most cas­es. Instead, accord­ing to Leigh Bran­ham, there are sev­en real, hid­den rea­sons peo­ple leave.

This week we dis­cuss those sev­en rea­sons and what you must do to address each.

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Kevin Lawrence 00:13

Wel­come to the growth whis­pers pod­cast where every­thing we talk about is build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies. This is a pas­sion that Brad Giles, my co host, and I have, in terms of com­pa­nies that are able to endure and endure for decades, gen­er­a­tions. It’s kind of excit­ing stuff for us. It might not be excit­ing for oth­ers, but we like to learn and share the best things that we learn. And that’s what we do here in this pod­cast. So I’m Kevin Lawrence, as I have already men­tioned, my amaz­ing co host, Brad Giles down there in Aus­tralia. Good day. How are you doing?

Brad Giles 00:46

Good, how are you today?

Kevin Lawrence 00:59

I’m good. I’m doing real­ly well. Had a good work­out this after­noon. I kind of had an easy morn­ing, and intend­ed to get out and did­n’t and had a good work­out this after­noon. And it’s amaz­ing how much bet­ter my ener­gy and how much bet­ter I feel after a good work­out. So yeah, that’s good. I feel real­ly good. And I’m been my nature path was sug­gest­ing I try this keto diet thing. I hope do a reset in my sys­tem. So it’s like, not even min­i­mal carbs, but like veg­eta­bles, and pro­tein and fat and it’s so strange to be focused on eat­ing fat. When you know, you’re con­di­tioned to think it’s bad for you so unex­pect­ed. They say lots of great things hap­pen when you do this for a peri­od of time. It’s almost like a it’s like a dif­fer­ent ver­sion of a cleanse by just eat­ing copi­ous amounts of ani­mal and oth­er pro­tein. So I’m feel­ing ener­getic, as well. So yeah, it’s good. How are you? How are you doing today?

Brad Giles 01:58

Oh, I’m very good. I’m very good. Just had four days down south three hours south of Perth here in the wind and surf­ing region of Mar­garet Riv­er. And yeah, it was it’s autumn here. So it was just great to get away in the call the for­est. Yeah, had a real­ly good break and eager to get back into it. So tell me, what’s your phrase or word for the day, every day? You know, for the lis­ten­ers ben­e­fit. We begin with a word or phrase best prac­tice that we sug­gest in open­ing meet­ings camp, what’s your word or phrase for the day?

Kevin Lawrence 02:38

mine is a com­bi­na­tion of a ground­ed reset. You know, it was actu­al­ly a pret­ty crazy week last week for a whole bunch of rea­sons. It was crazy. And I feel like instead of get­ting a town spent some time just to kind of reset things. And I need­ed that and when it you know, incred­i­bly busy time to set up and so it’s like a ground­ed reset. So I’ve reset. I’ve refo­cused and I know what I need to do. And I’m kind of excit­ed about get­ting it done. So yeah, a ground­ed reset. And I know it does­n’t sound maybe excit­ing, but some­times things get a lit­tle hairy and a lit­tle crazy. And yeah, I feel pret­ty good about it. So that’s me. How about you, Brad? What’s your word, your phrase of the day.

Brad Giles 03:26

So what hap­pened here last week in Aus­tralia. Regard­ing the Coro­n­avirus. Is the fed­er­al gov­ern­ment put all of its resources into this AstraZeneca

Kevin Lawrence 03:40

Oh, no,

Brad Giles 03:40

they did. Yes, they did. All of its resources. So they bet. Basi­cal­ly, the whole pop­u­la­tion’s vac­ci­na­tion on AstraZeneca a year ago, or let’s say, six months ago, and they pre-ordered and did a whole range of things. And then there’s obvi­ous­ly a prob­lem with blood clot­ting now. So this past week, they’ve had to say, we are now only going to have peo­ple who are under 50 to be vac­ci­nat­ed. Sor­ry, only peo­ple under 50 can­not be vac­ci­nat­ed using AstraZeneca.

Kevin Lawrence 04:21

Most­ly bad for peo­ple of that age. Wow.

Brad Giles 04:25

it caus­es blood clots because the body over­com­pen­sates the immune sys­tem over­com­pen­sates, and it kind of goes into hyper­drive or over­drive and then cre­ates these blood clots. So that kind of that, in the back of my mind made me think about the immune sys­tem of an orga­ni­za­tion and so my word is the body ejects the virus. When Jim Collins was writ­ing good to great there was a group of researchers judges that were in a meet­ing and one of them said, the peo­ple who are a play­ers in these orga­ni­za­tions, these great orga­ni­za­tions, it’s like they were hired in. And they just if they don’t fit, it’s like the body injects the virus. So yeah, that’s my phrase today. The body’s awe­some. Yeah,

Kevin Lawrence 05:23

well, you know, you know, and if there’s a real­ly ground­ed reset, some­times that can cause you to reject stuff, right? You can, you can inject the good, or the bad sto­ry and bring in more good you like, I bring it togeth­er, reset and ends up object­ing to revive virus and all the bad stuff. When lead­ers are ground­ed and focused, they get rid of the bad stuff, and they make room for good stuff, man, where we did­n’t even talk about it. But we’re real­ly I feel like a rap­per like we’ve been two sen­tences togeth­er. Any­ways, yeah, well, essen­tial­ly, but I love the idea of inject­ing the virus and I love watch­ing it hap­pen. Yeah, inter­est­ing­ly, that ties into today’s show, because some­times the virus ejects itself. That is when some­one joins a com­pa­ny and they don’t fit or they don’t love it, they, pull the rip­cord and they self eject out of the com­pa­ny. And that’s what we’re talk­ing about today. Today, we’re talk­ing about when peo­ple decide, enough of you, I’m out right now, whether they’re like a fight­er jet pilot that feels like they’re fly­ing into a moun­tain, and they’re gonna pull the ejec­tor seat and para­chute out before they crash, or before the com­pa­ny crash­es, or they’re just sick and tired of their boss. We’re talk­ing about that today new, inter­est­ing stat for you to think about when it comes to why peo­ple leave. Man, do peo­ple bs them­selves about why their peo­ple leave them. And there’s a fun­ny say­ing is that, you know, peo­ple don’t leave com­pa­nies, they leave man­agers. And we have data to back it up. Author Lee brown wrote a book sev­en hid­den rea­sons employ­ees leave, it’s kin­da like a secret book that I tell peo­ple about, they usu­al­ly haven’t heard about it. And it’s amaz­ing. And what they found in close to 20,000 inter­views, and I’ve ver­i­fied this through our own dis­cus­sions with team­mates that we’ll talk about that more. But when peo­ple leave a com­pa­ny vol­un­tar­i­ly, most peo­ple think they got pulled away by more mon­ey. And that’s almost always a lie. That is not they may have told you that are a whole bunch of oth­er things. But that’s almost always a lie. Now, it’s a con­ve­nient lie. Because then you don’t have to feel like you did a crap­py job. You can blame it on the oth­er com­pa­ny, but it’s actu­al­ly not true. And the stats are, is that 89% of man­agers believe peo­ple are pulled by bet­ter pay. Gen­er­al­ly, the data in the research here shows that close to 90% of the time it’s some­thing oth­er than mon­ey was the root cause of why they know the end, they might have been pulled by a few bucks. But it was­n’t the few bucks. There’s these oth­er things in this bril­liant book called sev­en hid­den rea­sons why peo­ple leave which we’re going to dig right into today. So we are not kid­ding our­selves. Yeah, absolutely.

Brad Giles 08:27

If you are lis­ten­ing to this, and you have a per­son who has recent­ly left you and you’re telling your­self that per­haps what’s hap­pened is they left because they got a bet­ter offer or though, you know, the data is telling us that there’s a nine out of 10 chance that that’s just not the case. 90% chance that that’s just not the case. So I want to I real­ly want to dig into one part from the book. par­adise fire right now. But what it’s say­ing is that this dis­con­nect between 89% of man­agers believe that peo­ple are pulled away by bet­ter play pay, but in actu­al fact, it’s oth­er rea­sons. Okay, so this is the phrase that I love from this book, this astound­ing dis­con­nect between belief and real­i­ty allows man­agers to deny respon­si­bil­i­ty for cor­rect­ing and pre­vent­ing the root caus­es of employ­ee disengagement.

Kevin Lawrence 09:34

Yes, it is. And that’s what dri­ves me crazy because I’ll be in meet­ings all day went because I got paid more, which com­plete­ly stops the man­agers an orga­ni­za­tion’s abil­i­ty to learn and get bet­ter. It’s an easy scape­goat to not dig into the root cause and you guys know I’m get­ting excit­ed about this because when we lose good peo­ple, to me, it’s a mas­sive sin seri­ous prob­lem and it’s like an unde­ni­ably unde­fend­able error like it, I mean, we all mess up. But it’s but if we get to the root of it and you know what’s inter­est­ing? No Brown, what I found is that, you know, when I talk to key peo­ple in com­pa­nies we work with, and we’ll, we put a lot of time and ener­gy recruit­ing and build­ing key lead­ers in these com­pa­nies. And when peo­ple come over, I’m always curi­ous, they always ask them, why did you leave? And guess what, they always state one of the damn sev­en on this list, it’s nev­er mon­ey. Even bet­ter, you know, I’ve had many lead­ers that I’ve worked with, that have been offered over the time. 5100, some­times 150% more mon­ey. And when they don’t go ask the same ques­tion, why did you say, yeah, and they get one of the sev­en rea­sons, or are mul­ti­ples of the sev­en rea­sons usu­al­ly when they say why they stay. So that’s real life data, it’s con­ve­nient to think it’s mon­ey makes you feel bet­ter if you lose a good per­son. But, you know, the research says dif­fer­ent. And when you go and dig in, and you know, our firm, even we do exit inter­views, some­times for clients when they lose, you know, a play­er’s when we dig in, it ain’t mon­ey. But I will tell you, I do believe that they some­times will say that, because it’s a very nice way not to burn a bridge, if I worked for you, Brad, instead of sit­ting down and telling you that you’re a jerk. And a word that starts with an A, that’s not a play­er, instead of telling you that and hav­ing you hate me for­ev­er, I can make it a con­ve­nient excuse around com­pen­sa­tion. And that way, I’m not burn­ing a bridge, I don’t have to, you know, have con­flict with you. And you know, I can, we can both save face. But it’s wrong, because we’re miss­ing out on the root caus­es of why we lose awe­some peo­ple that are so crit­i­cal to our orga­ni­za­tion. Now, if they were one of those virus­es, ie some­one that was­n’t a great fit. Well, that’s okay. Yeah, well, in all the oth­er cas­es, it’s not an I have seen some cat­a­stroph­ic loss­es we’ve had in com­pa­nies, and but this book is a great resource to try and min­i­mize those. And for those of you focused on retain­ing your best peo­ple, this is an amaz­ing book to under­stand the psy­chol­o­gy of reten­tion, because it real­ly goes back into the psy­chol­o­gy in dis­en­gage­ment, which even­tu­al­ly leads to peo­ple leaving,

Brad Giles 12:47

it’s just lazy. It’s just, it’s a lazy excuse to say mon­ey, because as that sen­tence said, it allows man­agers to deny respon­si­bil­i­ty. And if some­one is say­ing, oh, that per­son left, because of PE, the first response should be E. But what’s the real rea­son? What’s the real reason

Kevin Lawrence 13:09

and that’s the cul­ture we want to build into com­pa­nies is, that may or may not be what they said. But let’s fig­ure out the real rea­son, because we know there’s more to it than just that. Yeah, the mon­ey is not and it’s fas­ci­nat­ing how mon­ey is not the pow­er­ful source, we think it is in a lot of things. So inter­est­ing. Before we get into the mag­ic sev­en, you know, they also know the author talks about the, the process of dis­en­gage­ment. And what he talks about is it’s almost like peo­ple grad­u­al­ly walk down the stairs, like they’re walk­ing down stairs towards the ocean. And then they get low­er and low­er lev­els of dis­en­gage­ment. And they won­der why am I here? It’s just increas­ing lev­els of frus­tra­tion till it gets to the point more metaphor­i­cal­ly, it’s like, the straw breaks the camel’s back. There’s just so much weight on them, and so much pres­sure that they just say, you know, peace out, I’ve had enough, you know, I’m going to go and take this job for two bucks more.

Brad Giles 14:09

I remem­ber a sim­i­lar exam­ple, I was study­ing in Boston many, many years ago. And there was an Elec­tric Code, Doc­tor gen­er­al bill lead­er­ship expert, from, I think, from the south­ern US and he, he had this one slide that was just fan­tas­tic. He said, peo­ple need to be proud of their com­pa­ny, they need to be proud of their prod­uct. They need to be proud of man­ag­er and they need to be proud of their team, or else they will even­tu­al­ly leave. And that isn’t what we’re talk­ing about today. But it’s very sim­i­lar if peo­ple are leav­ing because of pay. Mike, one of my ques­tions is well are we giv­ing them some­thing to be proud of across Those four areas,

Kevin Lawrence 15:02

it’s some­times even when peo­ple ask for more pay. And I’ve seen it where some­times the more pay is rel­e­vant for their role. But some­times it’s because, you know, I don’t like my man­ag­er, I don’t like my team, I’m not proud of the com­pa­ny, so you bet­ter sure as heck pay me a ton of mon­ey to jus­ti­fy me rot­ting my soul in your orga­ni­za­tion. Right. And that I’ve seen that often, it’s just, it’s almost like dan­ger pay, you know, for those peo­ple that work up on the, on the pow­er lines, or on the top of sky­scrap­ers, you know, strag­gling met­al beams. You know, back in the old days, it’s almost like they want dan­ger pay to deal with all the crap. And again, that’s not i’m not say­ing that’s true in your com­pa­ny, I’m just say­ing we need to be aware of these things.

Brad Giles 15:43

Many, many years ago, we had a, I had a say­ing amongst oth­er peo­ple, which was that a pay rise only lasts a week. And what that means is that after a week, it’s nice to see your pay pack­et increase. But then you go back, and you’ve got to deal with the day to day prob­lems of effec­tive orga­ni­za­tion. So even if

Kevin Lawrence 16:03

your man­ag­er is still a jerk, even though you’re get­ting an extra buck an hour, a cou­ple 100 bucks a month, your man­agers still a jerk, or your com­put­er still does­n’t work prop­er­ly, or the work­place is not com­fort­able, or your chair is no good, or your co work­ers are what­ev­er it hap­pens to be. And you’re right. It’s fas­ci­nat­ing, you know, there’s a whole thing around com­pen­sa­tion strat­e­gy. And around com­pen­sa­tion strat­e­gy. It’s inter­est­ing, many com­pa­nies that we work with, that have out­stand­ing cul­tures as part of what makes them great. Well, they pay fair­ly, they’re not at the high­est pay­ing jobs in the mar­ket, and they’re not the low­est, they’re gen­er­al­ly some­where in the mid­dle. But part of the thing is, is they have such a great cul­ture, you know, peo­ple are hap­py to work for their mon­ey. You know, it does­n’t need to be the best in the indus­try in some cas­es. Because if there’s oth­er ben­e­fits, it’s like, you know, half of the val­ue in the job is the pay­check. The oth­er half is the intrin­sic stuff that makes you feel good about your­self and oth­er things, which we’ll get into here. So should we jump into our sev­en amaz­ing rea­sons, Brad?

Brad Giles 17:05

Let’s do it. So Rea­son num­ber one, the job or work­place was not as expect­ed. And then the data around this is that about 35% of Amer­i­can work­ers quit in the first six months. 35%. Wow, that’s a lot of ener­gy and recruit­ment fees

Kevin Lawrence 17:29

and pain, headaches, dis­ap­point­ments, can you imag­ine both sides lose in the old? To me, this is like the good old bait and switch. Yeah, we’re it’s this and it’s either over­selling it in appro­pri­ate­ly sell­ing it igno­rant­ly sell­ing it and not know­ing. No, it’s inter­est­ing. As a side note, we own some com­pa­nies, they’ll get peo­ple to talk to key employ­ees to get a sense of what it’s like, you know, when we do inter­views for exec­u­tives, we want to under­stand the envi­ron­ment they’re used to, and that they have thrived in or not liked to see if it match­es and even even even in our own firm, or a small bou­tique firm. But we when we bring peo­ple on, we tell them upfront, hey, it’s intense here. Hey, there’s very high expec­ta­tions of quick respon­sive­ness. And even Hey, our week­ly meet­ings are Mon­day nights at 6pm. Yes to 530 or six 5:30pm 5:30pm in the evening on Mon­days, which is on the west coast. But if you’re on the East Coast, that is 8:30pm. So our guys on the East Coast work from 830 till 10, every Mon­day night on our week­ly team meet­ing. And but it’s one of the first things we tell peo­ple, even though on our sup­port team, here’s what you’re gonna be sign­ing up for. And if that’s not okay, you know, that’s okay. But this is what you’re sign­ing up for. And so there’s no, that would be a very ugly thing to find out after you took a job.

Brad Giles 19:01

I mean, yeah, for sure. And that feeds into but if you’re up front, then that’s okay, that feeds into the job or work­place was not as expect­ed. And why is that? It’s often because peo­ple say, what are we going to do? Peo­ple, hir­ing man­agers or peo­ple who are respon­si­ble or like, we’ve just got to get some­one in as quick as pos­si­ble, because this job isn’t being done. You know, in my book made to thrive. I out­lined the five roles of a CEO and that is account­abil­i­ty, Ambas­sador cul­ture, strat­e­gy, and suc­ces­sion plan­ning. And that feels the role of a leader suc­ces­sion plan­ning. With­in that there’s a con­cept that I draw from a book called top grad­ing, which is the vir­tu­al bench and, and for key roles. You’ve got to have peo­ple that you’re talk­ing to already peo­ple who could poten­tial­ly make it so that you don’t have this sit­u­a­tion, which is what are we going to do, we’re in strife. We’ve got MTC, we need to just get some­one in there because then if they one of the 35%, that leave with­in six months, you just you’ve just got a revolv­ing door.

Kevin Lawrence 20:10

It is. So yeah, and that’s a case of some cas­es where that’s the case, Brad, we’re just so des­per­ate to get some­one. And some­times there’s some ugly things in the com­pa­ny that peo­ple aren’t com­fort­able telling oth­ers is just mis­man­age­ment, peo­ple actu­al­ly don’t paint a clear enough pic­ture of what this place is like, to make sure it’s like, it’s almost like, you know, we’re sell­ing them a car. And it’s like, they say, I want some­thing that has four wheels, and can get me to work. And then we actu­al­ly believe that that’s okay. Ver­sus fur­ther help­ing them under­stand what we sell this type of car, for this type of price. With this kind of war­ran­ty, this kind of gas mileage and try­ing to match, you know, it’s been in the car­pet to talk about but you know, they say there’s, there’s a but­ton for every seat, putting the right per­son into the right car, ver­sus just hav­ing them take the job and find all kinds of stuff that does­n’t work. So, again, that’s, that is pre­ventable. We can and we can, you know, refine over time, and we’re nev­er per­fect. How do you refine over­time to make sure you paint a clear pic­ture of what the jobs like. And in your inter­view process, make sure that you’re assess­ing your­self, whether they will nat­u­ral­ly fit with­in your envi­ron­ment. So that’s num­ber one. job or work­place was­n’t always it was a bad sur­prise, or a good old, unin­ten­tion­al usu­al­ly, bait and switch. So num­ber two, the mis­match between the job and per­son? Yeah, which we’ve touched on a lit­tle bit, but in the right job. And you’re the one I see all the time a lot, is some­one who is very, very social with an out­go­ing social per­son­al­i­ty, in a disc pro­file, they’d be high on AI or high­er on AI would influ­ence. And then you put them in, they put them into a role that’s soli­tary. And they’re sup­posed to sit there and work by them­selves all day, and they would be absolute­ly mis­er­able, or a per­son who’s been a very pow­er­ful indi­vid­ual con­trib­u­tor, and we put them into a man­ag­er role. And not only do they not even that, and they haven’t built the skills, yet, lots of peo­ple can learn to man­age, you know, they may or may not want to do it, but they actu­al­ly don’t have the skills to be a man­ag­er. And if you don’t like man­ag­ing peo­ple, and don’t have the skills, it would be an absolute night­mare. And you would hate it. And it’s hard some­times, for peo­ple to leave those pro­mo­tions and go back into indi­vid­ual con­trib­u­tor role, which is some­thing that we see a lot. Well, it’s

Brad Giles 22:37

about get­ting the right peo­ple on the bus in the right seats. So you got to make sure that the peo­ple who are in your orga­ni­za­tion are in the right role for them. And that comes back I guess, to degree with the rea­son one as well to con­sid­er­ing the hir­ing process to be you want to spend more time hir­ing, and less time fir­ing, you want to spend more time up front and the way that that trans­lates when it’s been a lit­tle while now. But the that I have con­duct­ed inter­views is I might say, Kevin, thanks for com­ing in today, we spend a bit more time than every­one else that you may be inter­view­ing with, because we see that we want to get you into the right role. And if it’s not with us, then that’s okay. But we see it would be a great dis­as­ter, if we got down the path. And you were in a role that you did­n’t feel was right for you, or we felt you went right for the role. So we spend more time to make sure that this is the right fit for you. Because it’s going to be a dis­as­ter for you if you come on board and then leave and it’s going to be a dis­as­ter for us as well. So we want to avoid that disaster.

Kevin Lawrence 23:50

Yeah, absolute­ly. And we’re again, very sim­i­lar. We pre­fer to use that ver­ba­tim in the com­pa­nies that we do a lot of hir­ing with, you know, for using that top grad­ing method­ol­o­gy. Because you know, and whether it’s an inter­nal pro­mo­tion or a new hire, same thing. So basi­cal­ly, before you offer some­one a job, par­tic­u­lar­ly even an inter­nal pro­mo­tion, dou­ble and quadru­ple check, are they going to thrive and be nat­u­ral­ly a good fit Not, not whether they want the job or not that if they want it, that’s a good start. It does­n’t mean that they will be capa­ble at it. And again, it’s our job to real­ly see Do they have this com­pe­ten­cy that the abil­i­ty proven abil­i­ties to thrive in that role? Or are we going to crush them, whether it’s an exter­nal per­son com­ing in or not? That’s why these peo­ple deci­sions are so crit­i­cal, par­tic­u­lar­ly even the inter­nal pro­mo­tions, they’re excru­ci­at­ing. So now that one makes sense, right? The per­son knows they’re in the wrong job. This is painful. They don’t see a way out. One, they don’t see anoth­er oppor­tu­ni­ty. or two. They don’t want to take a step back down again. Some­times is the case. A lit­tle Pret­ty high suc­cess rate of get­ting peo­ple to make a change, you know, most peo­ple, if you can allow them to save face, you can make a change if there indeed is a more suit­able role if there isn’t, that’s kind of a tough one. So, num­ber two mis­match between a job and a per­son, they’re in the wrong seat. And they often quit because they don’t see a way out. And if we leave it too long, they will quit. Some­times we can proac­tive­ly address it, but you’ve got some­one that’s there in the wrong seat, you know it, they prob­a­bly know what how do you address this in a way that is the most humane?

Brad Giles 25:35

Yeah, and then on to num­ber three, there is too lit­tle coach­ing and feed­back. So peo­ple num­ber three rea­son that peo­ple becom­ing dis­en­gaged and leav­ing jobs is that there’s too lit­tle coach­ing and feed­back. So I love this. I love this, this quote from the book, it talks about peo­ple or man­agers giv­ing feed­back once a year. So imag­ine that it’s like a bas­ket­ball coach telling his play­ers at the begin­ning of the sea­son, you’re gonna go out and play 30 games. And then at the end of this sea­son, I’ll eval­u­ate your per­for­mance. Like, it’s ludi­crous in the con­text of sports, okay? And that only high­lights how ludi­crous it is when you have an annu­al per­for­mance review. And there’s no coach­ing and feed­back through­out. And, and so the employ­ee thinks I’m not get­ting any bet­ter here, I don’t know if I’m doing the right thing. Or if I’m doing the wrong thing, how I just want to find a job where I can get some kind of under­stand­ing and feed­back, so I can get bet­ter at the job and not wait anoth­er eight months into my annu­al review, or when­ev­er it might be.

Kevin Lawrence 26:49

Yeah, it’s painful. And if you go into the world of sport, I mean, they do feed­back between shifts, or between when the per­son­’s play­ing and when they come off. Or if there’s feed­back by the coach nor­mal­ly, all right, right away in that moment, whether it’s pos­i­tive or improve­ment, you know, and when there’s breaks, you know, in one, num­ber one, no mat­ter what, what­ev­er the sport is a break. So that would be it’s basi­cal­ly the best man­agers give feed­back on a reg­u­lar ongo­ing basis. But that does­n’t hap­pen in a lot of places. A lot of peo­ple aren’t great at feed­back, it’s a skill. And even in the book, the one minute man­ag­er just talks about how micro feed­back is the key to suc­cess. And so there’s the ongo­ing feed­back ver­sus the once a year, and peo­ple just have no clue. You know, it’s, it’s inter­est­ing. In one of my clients over­seas, they had me coach a num­ber of the key exec­u­tives in a very fast-grow­ing com­pa­ny. It was a new CEO that was grow­ing quick­ly, and the team so we’re, we’re coach­ing them all. That’s pret­ty intense. So that we had a real tight sys­tem to coach the exec­u­tives, and keep them in sync with the CEO. There’s this tri­ad mod­el that works real­ly well. But that the point of it is, is these, these exec­u­tives were dying for feed­back. And the shock­ing thing is the high­est per­form­ers, usu­al­ly assumed the worst. And it was almost weird. It’s like the low per­form­ers were kind of laid back about it. But the high per­form­ers were wor­ried they weren’t doing good enough. And they need­ed it. And we did these sim­ple 20-minute feed­back ses­sions every quar­ter. So I sit down with the CEO to be here. And he and I would have pre­pared for an hour in advance for the entire team. And then the exec­u­tive comes in exec­u­tive spends, you know, six min­utes say­ing how they’ve made great progress and what they would need to work on next. And then the CEO says, where they have seen great progress and what they think the exec­u­tive needs to work on next. And as the coach, I’d weave that togeth­er into a, a sim­ple mini plan for that exec­u­tive for the quar­ter their growth, you know, what their growth goals were. And it was so basic, but the qual­i­ty of the con­ver­sa­tion was unbe­liev­able. and the val­ue of the exec­u­tive God was on liq­uid, they were always so grate­ful. Because there was a mech­a­nism that forced and it was only once a quar­ter, but it forced it and they loved it. And it also helped their growth. But peo­ple are just it’s for some peo­ple. It’s just not nat­ur­al to give it but yet every­body wants it. And not know­ing dri­ves peo­ple nuts.

Brad Giles 29:19

Yeah, yeah, absolute­ly. Again, the data that I did with­in my book, every­body wants the feed­back that no one wants to give is the HR arti­cle about that.

Kevin Lawrence 29:31

I love that every­one wants the feed­back that no one wants to give. Yeah, right.

Brad Giles 29:36

Yeah. And so they said, Do you want to receive pos­i­tive feed­back or you want to receive neg­a­tive feed­back? Or do you want to give pos­i­tive feed­back or do you want to give neg­a­tive feed­back, okay, and the, this was a sur­vey and the out­come basi­cal­ly, was that the high­est score is that no one wants to give Neg­a­tive feed­back. But every­one wants to receive neg­a­tive feed­back in the con­text of con­struc­tive crit­i­cism, not just hav­ing a go, are you? I believe that Yeah, so yeah. And the oth­er quick note, I’ve done sales train­ing before with sales teams, right? sales isn’t every­body, but it’s a great insight. And in sales teams, sales­peo­ple often nev­er get to actu­al­ly prac­tice all of the prac­tices that they do is with their man­ag­er. Sor­ry, it was with their poten­tial cus­tomer. So they’re always prac­tic­ing. And so we’ve done an exer­cise where we get three sales peo­ple togeth­er, one is try­ing to sell one is play­ing the cus­tomer, and one is play­ing the scribe. And they basi­cal­ly pitch to them over 10 min­utes, and then rotate and then rotate. And it’s a real­ly effec­tive way to get them to prac­tice. And it’s a form of feed­back and coach­ing that they just oth­er­wise would­n’t get, and they crave. So short sales peo­ple aren’t every every­one, but it’s so important.

Kevin Lawrence 31:07

It is. And again, the best teams do lots of feed­back, whether it’s between team­mates, and from the coach, the best sales teams prac­tice on role­play. When we train peo­ple on trop grad­ing, we prac­tice role­play feed­back, it’s like two days of prac­tice and role play­ing and feed­back to help peo­ple get bet­ter and you watch peo­ple get bet­ter. It’s like, it’s a pow­er­ful thing. You just need to find ways to engi­neer it into sys­tems and inter­est­ing. When we’re scal­ing com­pa­nies, we force the at least quar­ter­ly feed­back just to give peo­ple more chances to improve. And again, peo­ple want it you know, and, and, you know, and it’s even some­times as sim­ple as the pos­i­tive feed­back and Why thank you for doing that. Because sim­ple things, but being very spe­cif­ic feed­back makes a dif­fer­ence. Yeah, okay. Okay. So

Brad Giles 31:56

let us to rea­son for there are too few growth and advance­ment oppor­tu­ni­ties. So they have got­ten into the orga­ni­za­tion or they’re in there a while and they real­ize my career isn’t going to go any­where here. The peo­ple, all of the man­agers above me are lif­ers, or, you know, there is no oppor­tu­ni­ty to grow. And there is that from this, this rea­son that I love a recent sur­vey asked employ­ees to rate today’s man­agers on 67 lead­er­ship com­pe­ten­cies, devel­op­ing direct reports came in 67^th. That’s, that’s unbe­liev­able. That, you know, the job of a man­ag­er is to help the peo­ple around them to become bet­ter ver­sions of them­selves. Ah, you and

Kevin Lawrence 32:47

I know that Brad, that is not a com­mon­ly held belief by a lot of man­agers, a job of a man­ag­er is often obsessed with try­ing to get the work done and deliv­er on their goals. devel­op­ing their peo­ple is kind of like think­ing about pol­ish­ing the hub­caps or the wheels in their car. Most peo­ple don’t even think about it. It’s they’re so busy doing they think their job is to dri­ve the car, not pol­ish it. Right, unless they love to do that most peo­ple are so busy doing their darn job. They for­get their job is to devel­op peo­ple that ful­ly for­get. And I’m not say­ing it’s right, but it’s it, they just get lost in what they’re doing.

Brad Giles 33:26

The prob­lem with that anal­o­gy, I like it, but the prob­lem with that anal­o­gy, okay, is that if you focus your ener­gy on divert and devel­op­ing your direct reports, unlike a pol­ished hub­cap, it will have a mas­sive impact on your team and the orga­ni­za­tion perfect.

Kevin Lawrence 33:43

So their job is to teach oth­er they’re so busy dri­ving the car they for­get they should be teach­ing some­one else. I’ll step it up. Thank you for the feed­back. But great, what a won­der­ful exam­ple of feed­back on the spot about Kev­in’s mediocre anal­o­gy. So Kev­in’s improved it. Because the dri­ver you know, they real­ized they got to train oth­er peo­ple to dri­ve so they don’t have to see what works so well togeth­er. Brad, that’s awe­some. I love it. And you know what I can tell by look­ing Brad’s face he did­n’t even believe him. I real­ize he was demon­strat­ing it, but I caught it. And I like feed­back. So yes, it’s peo­ple get lost in it. And they for­get, that’s why they don’t give the feed­back. You know, and that’s a chal­leng­ing thing. And going back to the advance­ment and oppor­tu­ni­ties, tying it back into this one. I think that the chal­lenge here and what dri­ves me nuts is when we lose good peo­ple because they can’t see the oppor­tu­ni­ties. Yeah, but they’re there. It’s like the com­pa­ny is grow­ing at 30% a year, we’re expand­ing into anoth­er coun­try and you can’t see the oppor­tu­ni­ty. And what I’ve learned over the years, is that you got to take out a map and you have to with a cray­on or a pen­cil or pen, draw them the path from where they are to where they could be because it is off Then obvi­ous to us, but they can’t see it. And it’s strange. And it’s not that dif­fer­ent than look­ing at a total destroyed, old house that looks hor­ri­ble from the street and even looks worse inside. Most peo­ple can’t see a shin­ing palace, it could be like a ren­o­va­tion ver­sus you can already see it in four sec­onds. But unless you have the mind of that per­son, you can’t see how this dilap­i­dat­ed house could become a palace. And the same thing with peo­ple is it some peo­ple can’t see from where they are today with those man­agers that they think are nev­er leav­ing, they can’t see that growth oppor­tu­ni­ty. And we real­ly, tru­ly, we need to help them and paint the pic­ture for them and almost walk them down the path. And I’ve seen peo­ple leave because of it and it’s infuriating.

Brad Giles 35:51

You don’t know what you don’t know. Okay, so the man­ag­er has seen that path be fol­lowed many times in many dif­fer­ent ways, per­haps, where­as the employ­ee has nev­er been on that jour­ney before. So they don’t know what they don’t know. And, you know, part of that is, like you said, illu­mi­nat­ing that part say­ing to them, if you can do this, and this is, that’s how we can see your career grow­ing, that’s how we can see you becom­ing bet­ter. You know, every year, there are a sig­nif­i­cant por­tion of the work­force who retire, or who leave the work­force. And there’s always young peo­ple com­ing up, it’s always churn­ing over. So you know, there is a there is always oppor­tu­ni­ties that are arising.

Kevin Lawrence 36:44

And we know these things, but we often don’t com­mu­ni­cate them and wrap them into them. That’s where we have an oppor­tu­ni­ty to help them. Awe­some. Let’s, let’s so so basi­cal­ly, they don’t see the oppor­tu­ni­ties to grow. And, and, and some­times they aren’t there. And often they are but they don’t see the clear path. And that’s where these, these career path exer­cis­es and devel­op­ment plans. And as our man­ag­er, there’s some great things that we can do there. So num­ber five, feel­ing deval­ued and unrec­og­nized. Now look, some peo­ple are deval­ued, that’s that might be the way that they’re being treat­ed by their man­ag­er. And it hap­pens and it’s hor­ri­ble. But there’s also the unrec­og­nized or, or under appre­ci­at­ed. And, you know, it’s inter­est­ing, and they talked about this in the book, but I see it myself. It’s, it’s the mag­ic of say­ing, Thank you. And I appre­ci­ate it. Right. And, and, and it’s inter­est­ing, you know, one of the CEOs I work with, you know, at the end of his day, he would send a two or three texts, some­times five texts to dif­fer­ent peo­ple, thank­ing him for things that he had seen today and appre­ci­ate it today. Just a basic thing. Now, not shock­ing­ly, peo­ple, peo­ple loved him. Now you can go over it. And you know, it’s like, you can thank peo­ple for show­ing up. You know, you can thank peo­ple for sit­ting at their desk, and you can thank peo­ple for, you know, not adding val­ue. That’s, that’s, you know, you need to thank peo­ple for their con­tri­bu­tions, not just, you know, a rib­bon for show­ing up. But it’s a go ahead Brad.

Brad Giles 38:15

Isn’t that the job of HR?

Kevin Lawrence 38:21

HR is the make peo­ple hap­py depart­ment. Yeah, peo­ple are sup­posed to this. There’s noth­ing they’re sup­posed to build the cul­ture, make peo­ple feel good. And then fix my prob­lems when my peo­ple dri­ve me crazy, right? Yeah.

Brad Giles 38:44

They said, you know, some peo­ple rec­og­nize that. Some peo­ple believe that recog­ni­tion is the job of HR. My job is to get the job done as a man­ag­er, and hrs job is to, is to rec­og­nize peo­ple. I mean, a lot of what you said about we send a text at the end of the day, or you know, it’s the lit­tle things that make the big dif­fer­ence. You know, because it makes peo­ple feel good every time I run a an off­site quar­ter­ly work­shop, or plan­ning work­shop or an annu­al work­shop. One of the things that we do his top thanks to team­mates in the room. Yeah, that’s not nec­es­sar­i­ly a man­ag­er. Some­times it’s a man­ag­er, some­times it’s not, but every­one needs to par­tic­i­pate. So I’m gonna thank Kevin for his help on the ABC project, or Jo, Jo n for her help on the x y Zed project. So it’s lit­tle points like that. Now you can build in all the time that makes them feel a val­ued part of the team in the absence of that is a desert of recog­ni­tion. And you just don’t know, it’s not that peo­ple, I sup­pose peo­ple do need it. But it’s not that peo­ple need it in a needy way. But it’s just that peo­ple need to know that they’re val­ued. They need to know

Kevin Lawrence 40:16

want to be care­ful, you know, and this is not about, you know, a love fest, and every 30 sec­onds, you’re get­ting a thank you note, you know, it’s like, you know, some of the best CEOs, they have high expec­ta­tions. And they think when there’s a job well done, but it’s not maybe every day or every minute, right. There’s acknowl­edge­ment, appre­ci­a­tion, and they often will push back and ask for bet­ter work. Right? So I want to be very care­ful. It’s not every­one gets a rib­bon cul­ture. And, and thank you for show­ing up. And I know you tried hard, it’s Oh, yeah, you know, there’s cul­tures where there’s real recog­ni­tion. And if you look at sales orga­ni­za­tions, and there’s awards like crazy for dif­fer­ent things. So it just, it’s being con­scious of it. And basi­cal­ly as my mom taught me, and my grand­moth­er taught me, like, it’s like remem­ber­ing your man­ners. Yeah, thank peo­ple, appre­ci­ate peo­ple and say the things that you think, and you’re still gonna give feed­back, going back up to num­ber three, giv­ing feed­back when things could be bet­ter, you know, I’d like a lit­tle more of this or a lit­tle less of that, or, you know, next time, could you Yeah, so but basi­cal­ly feel­ing deval­ued or unrec­og­nized is a sure­fire way to kill some­one’s spir­it. So let’s go over six, six ones, a very inter­est­ing thing. Stress from over­work, and work life in bal­ance now, and in my book, your oxy­gen mask, first, I first of all dis­pel the thing of work life bal­ance, because it’s impos­si­ble. And for high per­form­ers, that nev­er works. And the fact that the self should be in the mid­dle your that your self is the dri­ver that makes the suc­cess at work, and you know, cre­ates life. But the point of it is, is that work con­sumes too much ener­gy is the fact which we’ll agree with 1,000%. And there’s not enough left for them to be hap­py and healthy, and to have a great life. And they and they can real­ly, this get too sucked into work and as a fine bal­ance there. Because some of the high­est per­form­ers do put in an extra­or­di­nary amount of ener­gy into work more than nor­mal. But some­times it becomes a cul­ture like in For exam­ple, I remem­ber read­ing arti­cles in Japan, where it was like, You weren’t allowed to leave the office tell the boss left. So peo­ple would sit there for hours and hours and hours and not even have work to do. But there was a social and this one arti­cle in par­tic­u­lar about say­ing the whole coun­try, a social pres­sure to put in long hours. And so that peo­ple could­n’t leave even though their work was done. And there’s an exam­ple there’s even though there’s a name for some­thing, peo­ple who would die at work, because they spend too much time salary. Yeah, yes, yes, they talk about their so the point of it is, is that, you know, it’s just that peo­ple can’t live a decent life. And as a result, they’re like, I can’t do this inter­est­ing. One of in one of the cov­ers over the work to this woman who was an A plus, plus, this woman was bril­liant, insane­ly good, nev­er missed a dead­line on any­thing. And so one of the key exec­u­tives in the com­pa­ny I worked with, and one day she quit. And holy did a few of us have a pas­sion­ate debate about basi­cal­ly who messed that one up. And long sto­ry short, what came out is she was a per­fec­tion­ist, high per­former, who could nev­er missed a dead­line and could not do any­thing but Per­fect, per­fect work what she did bet­ter than any­one in a com­pa­ny. But it was destroy­ing her life. So she could­n’t drop her stan­dards and do less crap­py work. She talked to her boss, she was actu­al­ly a direc­tor. That was it was exec­u­tives report­ed to she talked to her boss. We did­n’t do any­thing about it. So final­ly, she had to quit to save face and her soul. She had no option but to quit. Yeah, because she could­n’t not deliv­er and then she could­n’t destroy her­self and her fam­i­ly in the process. It was work­ing out inter­est­ing­ly, thing it took a cou­ple years they got her back, thank­ful­ly. But it was it was sad was also a stark reminder of the down­side of these com­mit­ted high per­form­ers. And when they start to let us know, it’s a bit too much. Like we got to be there to help them out and back them up and help them to reduce the stress and find ways to still have a great life by the way. Last point, Brad. It’s, it’s also why for our com­pa­nies, you make sure all the key exec­u­tives have goals for their own resilience and their growth, which just goes back to your oxy­gen mask first, in addi­tion to their work goals, so that we keep the self goals on the radar because it allows them to stay healthy and resilient and not, you know, not get destroyed. But I’m sure you have some thoughts on this, Brad. So I get real­ly excit­ed about this one. It’s a guy. Yeah.

Brad Giles 44:58

So from the book of 70% of peo­ple Say that they don’t have a healthy bal­ance between work and per­son­al lives. 70% Okay, and 60% of peo­ple would give up some pay in exchange for more per­son­al or fam­i­ly time. Now, does that mean that you need to turn to a four day work­week at your orga­ni­za­tion? Well, no, it does­n’t mean that. But it means that you’ve got to under­stand that 70% peo­ple say they don’t have a healthy bal­ance. So how can you work with that? Now I’ve got a com­pa­ny that I work with, and one of their core val­ues is about com­mu­ni­ty. Okay. And, and we did this, we did this exer­cise, which is, do and do not? So it’s basi­cal­ly for the core val­ues, say­ing how do you get to under get every­body in the orga­ni­za­tion to under­stand so do this, and don’t do that, that’s how you will live out val­ues. So with­in com­mu­ni­ty, what they said is, do not is miss­ing the school assem­bly for your kids. And, and, and so that, in terms of their val­ues is, is a great exam­ple of how you can do that. So school assem­blies can be I mean, they don’t hap­pen every day, but they can be quite impor­tant for some peo­ple. So if you’re at work, and you’re miss­ing, some­thing like that, for that orga­ni­za­tion, that’s a real let­down. So they’re kind of say­ing, what real­ly mat­ters to us.

Kevin Lawrence 46:32

And they’re help­ing to build it into the envi­ron­ment. So it’s social­ly accept­able. Many com­pa­nies we work with have cul­tures where you’re encour­aged to do those things. I mean, a lot of the com­pa­ny’s work was still real­ly ter­ri­ble. They’re peo­ple, they haven’t lost their soul yet. No, we catch them before they lose their soul, we try to get it all out of the damn thing. So they still care about it. And I think that’s impor­tant because, and some­times peo­ple want to do it, but they’re afraid to look bad or look on com­mit­ted or what­ev­er it hap­pens to be. So when you have mech­a­nisms like that, that encour­age it. It’s awesome.

Brad Giles 47:04

Well, if you if you’re an employ­ee, just to close this out, if you’re an employ­ee at that orga­ni­za­tion, you’re going to be think­ing to your­self, Well, this is a long term job, like this is a sus­tain­able job. They want me to be healthy on mul­ti­ple lev­els, which is what we want.

Kevin Lawrence 47:24

It isn’t, there’s no kind of what we want for all of our­selves and our team. So yes, so stress from over­work, and work life bal­ance, we got to keep an eye on it, we got to help peo­ple to make sure they take care of them­selves and have room for what they want in their life. Even as I shared last week for our team, on our quar­ter­ly goals, we have our goals for work, our goals for our­selves, we also list out the most impor­tant things we want to achieve in life. Like we’ve got goals for the holis­tic per­son, because we know that you got to thrive on all of those to sus­tain suc­cess. So let’s go to num­ber sev­en. And this is a bit of a sen­si­tive one. It’s the rea­son why I actu­al­ly stopped work­ing with one of my clients, because in many ways, we’re like a bit of a you know, in many ways, like a team mem­ber, but it’s loss of trust and com­pe­tence and senior lead­ers. And senior leader, we make mis­takes all the time, you know, our­selves and then peo­ple we work with. But some­times peo­ple do some things that peo­ple just No, it’s some­times it’s a dif­fer­ence in beliefs about how you han­dle a sit­u­a­tion. Yeah, that hap­pens. I had, I had a CEO I worked with Jere­my was a good guy. Actu­al­ly, I’ve had a few. But one is this, he was a good guy. I like him, I would still chat with him. But work­ing with him, he did one thing, one day that I found out about some­thing that he did. And I’m like, You’re not my kind of guy. And I’m not gonna dis­close any­thing about what it was. But it was just like, I lost con­fi­dence in him imme­di­ate­ly. Because of the way he con­duct­ed him­self. It just it was Yeah. And that that cre­at­ed dis­en­gage­ment. In my case, I stopped the engage­ment. Because I don’t like that, you know, that just was some­thing that I lost trust in Him. And in terms of his lead­er­ship, I’ve seen it with oth­er peo­ple. And there’s so many things that go into build­ing trust and con­fi­dence. And a lot of it is you know, doing what you say, you know, and just being a straight­for­ward, good, good, good per­son, but no, trust is a big deal. And when you don’t trust peo­ple, you don’t want to want to hang out with them or espe­cial­ly work­ing for them. Yeah.

Brad Giles 49:41

So one of my favorite reads each year just to go absolute full nerd on you is the Edel­man trust barom­e­ter. So the Edel­man trust barom­e­ter every year they do a sur­vey all around the world. Most coun­tries I’ll say so cer­tain­ly OECD coun­tries, but more coun­tries and they serve a pol­i­tics, media and busi­ness. And I think this year in 2021, busi­ness was the high­est trust the CEOs was amongst their. But is the trust lev­el in your orga­ni­za­tion high­er than the aver­age? That’s an inter­est­ing ques­tion to con­sid­er. And, of course, peo­ple, you know, peo­ple have a great strug­gle on this, to look in the mir­ror. And I don’t know that, depend­ing on the size of your orga­ni­za­tion, it’s worth con­sid­er­ing sur­vey­ing it. But it’s, you know, what are you doing to under­mine trust in your orga­ni­za­tion? Yeah. You know, the data from the book says that com­pa­nies with high­er trust lev­els, out­per­formed com­pa­nies with low trust lev­els by 186%. So it’s, there’s a com­pelling rea­son to focus on trust, what under­mines trust and how you can build more trust with­in your orga­ni­za­tion? Sure.

Kevin Lawrence 51:09

Like with­in a team trust is a big thing we work on, we’re build­ing healthy exec­u­tive teams, right? We do a ton of work around that. And that trust is a big com­po­nent, which there’s things to help it. But there’s also this there’s a Stephen Cov­ey’s son. And I think he wrote a book called The speed of trust. Yes. And, and, and, you know, there was one thing I took from the book. And it was trust allows for fast inter­ac­tion, com­mu­ni­ca­tion and exe­cu­tion, because you don’t have to doc­u­ment every­thing and CC the world to cov­er your butt because you don’t trust the per­son. You notice. When you trust some­thing. You just have a five sec­ond con­ver­sa­tion. Yep, I got it done. You don’t call the lawyer to doc­u­ment it. You don’t even send a darn email, you might make a note, but you know, you but when you don’t holy, let me think about it. Half an hour engi­neer­ing con­ver­sa­tion, 14 line emails and firm, please respond to con­firm, maybe we get the lawyer, maybe we involve HR, maybe I dou­ble check with my boss, when you don’t have trust, every­thing gets weird and slow. It’s hard on the sys­tem. And it’s some­thing that we don’t have inter­est­ing, one of our clients in India, you know, how you build trust in India? pay­ing peo­ple on time. Yeah, like in Cana­da, It’s not even a ques­tion. But in dif­fer­ent coun­tries, it’s dif­fer­ent than to lit­er­al­ly pay­ing peo­ple on time. Right? It’s also why some CEOs have a reg­u­lar time that they address their com­pa­nies, right? You know, and it’s also the oth­er thing you got to think about, it’s also Who do you pro­mote? Right? If you’re pro­mote peo­ple that are seen as not being trust­wor­thy, then that reflects on the com­pa­nies all kinds of things they all point of it is under­stand­ing that trust is a big deal if peo­ple lose trust, and senior lead­ers, and senior lead­ers have to make con­tro­ver­sial deci­sions and do things it can real­ly have a mas­sive rip­ple effect. So that is sev­en hid­den rea­sons why employ­ees leave and we will know Brad will kind of review them. But the key point here is, is that peo­ple don’t leave because of mon­ey. It’s num­ber eight on the list. And it’s usu­al­ly no less than 10%. The root cause is one of these oth­er things, that psy­cho­log­i­cal­ly or a com­bi­na­tion of psy­cho­log­i­cal­ly dis­lodge peo­ple and they start to dis­en­gage. And they kind of slipped down this the stairs of dis­en­gage­ment until they kind of wash it on the ocean. And we think they left for more mon­ey, but they just want­ed to get the heck away from us is often the case. So num­ber one rea­son that the work­place was­n’t what they expect­ed. Num­ber two, mis­match between the job and the per­son. Num­ber three, they did­n’t get enough coach­ing and feed­back. Tell me more tomor­row, I’m doing well, but also tell me how I can improve. Next one is there are too many, there’s too few growth and advance­ment oppor­tu­ni­ties. Well, many not enough, they want to grow. They want those oppor­tu­ni­ties, but you got to help paint the path for them. Num­ber five, feel­ing deval­ued and unrec­og­nized. There’s not enough appre­ci­a­tion for what they’re doing, whether it’s by team­mates or their boss. Num­ber six stress from over work or work life and bal­ance basi­cal­ly, or con­sumes too much ener­gy, not enough room for them to have a great life. And last but not least, last but not least num­ber sev­en. They don’t trust us the sim­u­la­tors we did some­thing to break their trust, and it could have been a num­ber of things. Hence why we look at engage­ment sur­veys and look­ing for the pat­terns. What’s the final thoughts before we wrap it up?

Brad Giles 54:42

Yeah, awe­some. So again, that book is the sev­en hid­den rea­sons employ­ees leave, how to rec­og­nize the sub­tle signs and act before it’s too late. So I encour­age you to take a look at that. And also, I guess, final point, under­stand­ing that if you’re say­ing peo­ple are leav­ing because of mon­ey, it could just be, it could just be that. In actu­al fact, that’s an excuse so that you don’t have to do the hard work and it is hard work. So yeah, so with all of that, um, thanks for lis­ten­ing. This has been the growth whis­pers pod­cast. And as always joined today by Kevin Lawrence, my co host. And you can find Kevin at Lawrence​and​co​.com and myself, Brad at evo​lu​tion​.part​ners​.com​.au. So thanks very much for lis­ten­ing. We hope you have a good week. We look for­ward to chat­ting again to you next week.