Podcast Ep 74 | The Power and Struggle of Saying No

Say­ing yes comes at a cost. Under­stand­ing the cost of yes and the chal­lenge of say­ing no can help you become a more effec­tive leader.

The price of yes includes time, mon­ey and ​“busy­ness” that can impact our effec­tive­ness. Also, say­ing no to the mediocre things means you can keep room for greatness.

This week we talk about the price of yes and pro­vide some tools and tech­niques to help you say no when required.

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Brad Giles 00:13

Hi there, wel­come to the growth whis­pers where every­thing we talk about is build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies. My name is Brad Giles. And I am joined today as always, with my co host by my co host, Kevin Lawrence from Van­cou­ver, Cana­da. Kevin, how are you doing today?

Kevin Lawrence 00:30

Doing great, Brad. It’s a Yeah, it’s a great day. Look­ing for­ward to the show we’re cov­er­ing off tonight. It’s a top­ic that I need to keep focused on and work­ing on myself. So I’m real­ly look­ing for­ward to it.

Brad Giles 00:42

Awe­some. So we always like to begin with a very sim­ple word or phrase to kick us off as we advo­cate peo­ple doing meet­ings, what’s your word or phrase for today?

Kevin Lawrence 00:54

no, there’s a cou­ple of dif­fer­ent things rolling in my head. But it’s automa­tion. Automa­tion is the word of today. And it’s how do you get things in your world set up to take care of them­selves. So whether it’s automat­ing tech­nol­o­gy, although I’m hav­ing some has­sle, with some tech­nol­o­gy, that’s mak­ing it more chal­leng­ing, but I auto­mate tech­nol­o­gy. Or it’s automat­ing sys­tems to allow peo­ple to man­age them­selves, ie report­ing or things that cre­ate envi­ron­ments for peo­ple to do their best work with­out hav­ing to be con­stant­ly poked and prod­ded and remind­ed and reset. So yeah, automa­tion, look­ing the auto­mate in terms of sys­tems. Obvi­ous­ly, tech­nol­o­gy can auto­mate a lot of things. But what can you auto­mate in terms of sys­tems in par­tic­u­lar to allow things to be to per­form well, with a lot with­out a lot of inter­ven­tion? Oh, you, Brad? Well, very good,

Brad Giles 01:46

very good. Um, how are you help­ing to edu­cate your team? So I remem­ber dis­tinct­ly, prob­a­bly about five years ago, we went to Las Vegas and I got to to a Zap­pos com­pa­ny on when Tony Shea, a very suc­cess­ful entre­pre­neur, and they had the phi­los­o­phy to have a com­pa­ny library that any staff mem­ber could take books from, that they kept replen­ished. So they sort of curat­ed a group of books that they felt were the best in gen­er­al top­ics. And I remem­ber going into the library just, yeah, just think­ing this is a real­ly cool way. And I mean, I do that with lead­er­ship teams, we have this thing called per­son­al pro­fes­sion­al devel­op­ment that we work on each quar­ter. But are you keep­ing your team ahead of the growth curve? So yeah, it’s real­ly just about grow­ing, grow­ing, the lead­ers with­in your team and your com­pa­ny, automat­ing? I don’t know how to you’re the per­son who Mater meet­ing and

Kevin Lawrence 02:43

edu­cat­ing your team, automat­ing edu­cat­ing your team, that’s a great weave in. Okay, well, let’s jump right into today. So today, we’re talk­ing about the pow­er and the cor­re­spond­ing strug­gle of say­ing no, no, Tues­day, one of the short­est words in Eng­lish lan­guage, out­side of I know, is a very pow­er­ful world word. And a dif­fi­cult word for a lot of peo­ple. And even when we’re well inten­tioned, there are sit­u­a­tions where things are at a deci­sion point. And we can say yes or no, there’s many things are mid­stream. We can say yes or no. Or when some­thing’s been run­ning for a long time that some­times we do need to say no, instead of Yes. And it’s almost like no, I’m sor­ry, yes, it’s assumed. So it’s the pow­er of say­ing no, and the root of it today we’re talk­ing about is that tru­ly, we all have lim­it­ed time. No, we have lim­it­ed time on our hands. There’s always a lim­it to mon­ey to a cer­tain degree. And we have a lim­it of ener­gy. You know, how much ener­gy we have the ded­i­cat­ed things, and tru­ly thriv­ing in our life. And thriv­ing in our work and thriv­ing in terms of self is just a mat­ter of what you say yes. And what you say no to that’s it. Life is just say­ing yes and no, it’s very bina­ry. And how we allo­cate those yeses and noes makes a huge impact on the rest of our world. And it’s not rock­et sci­ence. But that’s kind of what we’re dig­ging into today. The you know, the, the oppor­tu­ni­ty, but also the strug­gle of this mag­i­cal word. No,

Brad Giles 04:20

yeah, I think that the thing about No, it can work real­ly pos­i­tive­ly or real­ly neg­a­tive­ly against our true intent. And that’s why we kind of call it the pow­er of say­ing no, or the why that mat­ters. Because if you have a prob­lem that you want to solve, some­times say­ing no, can it can be coun­ter­in­tu­itive, but it can be quite pow­er­ful. Some­times you might want to make a deci­sion. And you’re using the word no. In order to not say yes And that’s actu­al­ly could be work­ing against and kind of a bit of an anchor on your progress or your, your, your move­ment for­ward. So yeah, just real­ly get­ting into what is it that no can do for us to help to free up our time and money?

Kevin Lawrence 05:16

It is. And it’s hard some­times because we there’s ten­sion or it’s awk­ward. Some­times we just want to say yes, because we’re curi­ous, or, and I’m real­ly bad for say­ing yes. When I should say no, I have a lot of mech­a­nisms in place. And we’ll get to some of those today. And some things that have real­ly showed up in my world is if you, if you say yes to Okay, or mediocre oppor­tu­ni­ties, then you can some­times be say­ing no to amaz­ing oppor­tu­ni­ties, so there’s no room for them. But if you don’t say yes to some oppor­tu­ni­ties, some­times there’s not as many com­ing that you might want. And there’s a lot of fac­tors at play. So we’re just going to share with you some sce­nar­ios that we often end up get­ting stuck and no would be very pow­er­ful or help­ful. And then we’ll give some spe­cif­ic tech­niques to help with say­ing no, when you kind of know that you should, or you have a feel­ing that you should. So the first thing one first sit­u­a­tion. And we kind of talked in this one already, but it’s it’s remind­ing your­self when you’re mak­ing a deci­sion by say­ing yes to this thing here, I actu­al­ly am by default, I’m say­ing no to some­thing else. So I’ll give an exam­ple in my world, you know, when I say yes to a client that needs some addi­tion­al help, and I do the work myself, I’m say­ing no to my team hav­ing an oppor­tu­ni­ty to do this work, poten­tial­ly. I’m also say­ing no to maybe hav­ing some extra free time. I’m also say­ing no to poten­tial­ly hav­ing time with my kids, my part­ner, my par­ents, you know, I lit­er­al­ly by say­ing yes to a project, I could be say­ing no. To 10 oth­er things. Yeah. And I remind myself, because I love to help my clients and I love those addi­tion­al projects. That’s a sim­ple thing is just tru­ly remem­ber­ing in that moment. And real­iz­ing there’s con­se­quences to every Yes. And then there’s also no con­se­quences to every No.

Brad Giles 07:24

And I love that because it’s like you can have a pre pre­pared list men­tal­ly that you can have in your head. So when some­one says, Do you think we could just maybe catch up for cof­fee, I just want to tap your brain about some­thing or what­ev­er The rea­son is that they say, then you can think intu­itive­ly, well, that means that I don’t get to spend time with my fam­i­ly, I don’t get to, you know, fur­ther my strat­e­gy, I don’t get to spend time with my team, what­ev­er it might be, and all of those, or if you can have that sim­ple check­list in your head as to the oth­er things I’m say­ing no to if I say yes to you. It can make that No, just a lit­tle bit easier.

Kevin Lawrence 08:09

Sure. Or, like I said, almost an auto­mat­ed sys­tem, like my default answer to if some­one wants to have cof­fee is no, I just don’t do it. And out of you know, 50 requests, I might do one and I know that might sound bad, it’s just I’ll jump on a phone call. Any­time I’ll talk to any­one for 15 min­utes if it’s your client wants me to or some­body else wants me to. But the cof­fee, I’m gonna go phys­i­cal­ly in a half hour cof­fee takes an hour and a half. I just I’m just not inter­est­ed I can cov­er what I need to on the phone. I don’t need more per­son­al con­nec­tion with peo­ple maybe dur­ing COVID but not now. So. So there’s you know, doing hav­ing that that check­list is one thing and hav­ing even a pre defined that you just don’t do cer­tain things. Um, oth­er sit­u­a­tion, go ahead read.

Brad Giles 08:59

And that real­ly leads us into kind of the sec­ond point that we’ve got here, which is when you feel the pres­sure to say yes, you know, if you’ve got that check­list, it makes it just a touch eas­i­er, because it is hard to say no. You don’t want to let the per­son down. Maybe you’ve got a per­son­al rela­tion­ship with them. Maybe you actu­al­ly want to help them with their prob­lem or issue as well. So it can be quite per­son­al­ly dif­fi­cult to say no. And you’ve got to know that. No, you’ve got to know you’ve got to under­stand that that pres­sure to say yes is ever present. And it’s okay to say no.

Kevin Lawrence 09:43

Yeah, and what I do in those sit­u­a­tions, again, I have hacks for all of these things because you know, I get stuck on these. is that when I feel pres­sure to say yes, I nor­mal­ly have it’s one of my tech­niques I use the was­n’t on the list here. I had it in a list of artists. I gen­er­al­ly say, I’ve learned to in the moment almost nev­er say yes. And I’ll say, Okay, let me think about that. Let’s chat tomor­row. Or let me talk to Jan­ice, my right hand or Dean or some­one on my team. Let me talk to some­body. And then I’ll get back to you. Because my default when peo­ple ask me to help us, I’m gonna say yes. So I have the same if I’m, if I’m, you know, shop­ping and think­ing about buy­ing some­thing, I was in Que­bec City, and I saw a paint­ing I loved. I’m like, Okay, I got the infor­ma­tion I want­ed. And then I said, Okay, um, let me think about it. I’ll come back and add, there’s still a risk of not get­ting it. But I’ve just know, I step away when I feel that pres­sure, and I’m not sure there’s times when I know what I’m not sure. I defer. And, and I, yeah, let me think of what I come back, when I kind of my brain set­tles down that I know what the right decision.

Brad Giles 11:01

You know, the oth­er one is, I don’t, I don’t do that. So it’s like you’re say­ing no, but you’re also pro­vid­ing a rea­son. And so some peo­ple can find it quite dif­fi­cult to direct­ly say no, and but to use your exam­ple of grab­bing a cof­fee. Look, I don’t grab cof­fees, I just don’t do it. It’s one of my rules. Yeah, hap­py to have a phone call for like 15 min­utes, if that’s gonna help you out. And you can use that across a whole range of things is that I don’t do that. That’s, I just don’t do it.

Kevin Lawrence 11:34

You know, it’s inter­est­ing. I’ve got a great exam­ple, I’ve got a piece of fur­ni­ture sit­ting in my new place. That will be a reminder for a while and the cou­ple $1,000 I lose on it? Because I did­n’t say no, when I should have you not had an ad in this new place get­ting ren­o­vat­ed. And some­one per­suad­ed me to buy this table. I liked the table. They showed me the col­or sam­ple that they rec­om­mend­ed, like no, I don’t like that col­or. It looks like a 1990s bed­room suite. It’s like pinky gray. I don’t like the col­or. They said trust me, trust me, it’ll look good because of this. And that I said, No. And they per­sist­ed, like five times. And final­ly I said, Okay. And now I got a freakin ugly pink table in the mid­dle of my place. And, you know, it’s noth­ing that I’m gonna lose, I’m gonna basi­cal­ly I’m sell­ing it, it’s brand new, but I’m sell­ing it on mar­ket­place, and all you

Brad Giles 12:30

know, is, you know, there’s a chance that could come into fashion

Kevin Lawrence 12:34

is, you know, I’m think­ing, you know, actu­al­ly, and it prob­a­bly is in some­body’s house, it just isn’t impas­sion in mind, I don’t know when it’s a nice table on some­one cus­tom paint­ed it to make it look beau­ti­ful, and all this stuff, and I can’t stand it. So that’s my, that’s my, that’s my deci­sion. You know, I even though this per­son rec­om­mend, I said, Yes, I bought it. I’m stuck with it. And now a cou­ple 1000 bucks lat­er on, I already bought anoth­er one, you know, that I like and the thing is, it’s, there’s cer­tain sit­u­a­tions, and if the truth is I was super busy. I did­n’t real­ly have time to think about it. I’m like, No, and they were so per­sis­tent. I said, and that’s again, that’s on me, that’s my I made the choice. There’s a bunch of rea­sons. But you know, and every once in a while, we get a good reminder that I won’t do that again soon, at least not for anoth­er week. So the third one is when some­thing just goes to four and needs to stop or just needs to end like that. It’s some­times it’s like, you know, there’s a book called nec­es­sary end­ings. Oh, that’s actu­al­ly quite a big book. It is it is actu­al­ly in it’s a real­ly good book. I real­ly enjoyed it. Dr. Henry

Kevin Lawrence 13:42

It is That’s him. Cor­rect. And, but when some­thing comes too far, you just need to call it and whether it’s a project, whether it’s a prod­uct, whether it’s a sup­pli­er, whether it’s a friend­ship, whether it’s a car, it does­n’t mat­ter, whether it’s an old sweat­shirt or hood­ie, whether it’s a rela­tion­ship with a table, it was a very short term rela­tion­ship, Brad, I’ve been see­ing that table for a boat 27 days. And that’s that that was a very short term table rela­tion­ship. But yes, you just got to call it and again, there’s that ten­sion of end­ing it or throw­ing some­thing away what­ev­er it hap­pens to be. It’s just, you know, you got­ta remove the b grade stuff in your world to make room for the eighth grade. And that’s anoth­er sce­nario why my cov­er num­ber four, Brad that you brought up this one? You real­ly like this one?

Brad Giles 14:37

Yeah. So Hen­ry cloud like just want to close that off because his book, nec­es­sary end­ings, it gives you great com­fort in clos­ing any of those things and it not only says it’s okay, it is why it’s so impor­tant to fin­ish these things, study and mov­ing on to the next one. So Some­times you can be stuck on mak­ing a deci­sion and you get analy­sis, paral­y­sis, and you’re like, ah, I might just leave that deci­sion. What about if I’m just white, or you can’t decide. And so you leave it there, and it just hangs over, you just hangs over you and occu­pies your men­tal band­width. And so if you’ve got one of those things, or two, or five or 20 of those on incom­plete deci­sions, it’s it’s just sit­ting there, occu­py­ing your mind. So instead, sim­ply say­ing no, can be okay, you can always restart that soft­ware project in the future for your com­pa­ny, if it seems, if it pops up again, in the pri­or­i­ties that you’re try­ing to set. Or you can always, you know, decide to buy anoth­er house in the future. If you want to start that again, but just say­ing we’re not, I can’t decide, I can’t com­mit to a yes. And there­fore, I’m going to com­mit to a no, it’s not a kind of wig­gly say­ing, hell yes. Or Hell no. It’s not a hell yeah, then it’s just a no, like, force your­self to be a bit bina­ry in that area.

Kevin Lawrence 16:24

It is, and that’s when I use that one a lot. If I’m not sure if I’m stuck in the mid­dle, it means no, because when I real­ly want some­thing, I real­ly want some­thing, it’s real­ly obvi­ous. So haryan­to was great. The sec­ond thing on that one, is there’s some deci­sions that can be eas­i­ly changed or reversed. Right and some things can’t. So you know, what you’re remind­ing your­self the the the the the cost of change if you don’t like the deci­sion. The oth­er piece on this is what I call is toads in my book, right? There’s a book in your oxy­gen mask ver­sus a chap­ter called liqueur, toads. And these are things you just keep think­ing about. And they start burn­ing up men­tal band­width, and they clut­ter your mind incom­plete things. Deci­sions is one of them. So you know, if it don’t, you know, just find a way to decide and I say don’t obvi­ous­ly do that nas­ti­est thing first thing each morn­ing, but a lot of times it’s deci­sions. Yeah. Because there’s, there’s fric­tion around deci­sions are lin­ger­ing things, and it burns up space. So Hell­yar, no lin­ger­ing deci­sions, some point, just decide. And you can say no, or some­times you can just say not now, like, I’m not ready, let me think about this, you know, I’m hap­py to revis­it it in Jan­u­ary, or what­ev­er it hap­pens to be. It’s also hard when you’ve got thing I’ve got with my kids, you know, you get some things where you got mul­ti­ple peo­ple try­ing to decide. And that’s real­ly, real­ly hard. And again, you know, some­times say­ing no, fine, we just won’t do it is the best choice. If he can’t find a way and then some­times even by say­ing no, peo­ple will come back and almost to have a stronger desire to push through. Like when you just sort of you know, call it quits, but some­times get it off and get it off peo­ple’s mind.

Brad Giles 18:11

Yeah, we want to force those deci­sions. We’ve spo­ken before about the impor­tance of the week­ly meet­ing. And part of that is that you have all the deci­sion mak­ers and influ­ences in the room. And so when you’ve got that, that enables you to be able to force those deci­sions and now is okay, but an absence of a deci­sion isn’t per­haps not okay. Correct.

Kevin Lawrence 18:36

And then the next thing excit­ed num­ber five is that some­times you just got to change your mind. And I’ve learned with some of the best entre­pre­neurs I work with, they always reserve the right to change their mind. They have no prob­lem chang­ing their mind if they need to. And so we inter­viewed one of the CEOs who work with them Greg Smith of think if ik is one of our clients that has done excep­tion­al­ly well went pub­lic mas­sive val­u­a­tion, mas­sive suc­cess. And he told the sto­ry and I haven’t writ­ten down and I for­get who it was it’ll but it basi­cal­ly is a sto­ry about strat­e­gy. And the sto­ry is about this cap­tain of the ship and I think it was in more than movies like Water­world or some­thing like that. And the cap­tain just goes you know, they don’t know they can’t see that it was okay work no any points a cer­tain direc­tion. And all the men start rolling like crazy. And his right hand goes um, is their land over there. He’s like, I don’t know. He was on Why are you say­ing you know full steam ahead go that direc­tion. And they’ll steam in this case is men pad­dling. He’s up because well, we’ll go for a month and then we’ll either we’re going to see land or we’ll see some­thing else in the mall. Fix it then but right now we need to do some­thing. Right and it’s you know, there’s a lot of things around strate­gies try­ing things you don’t have to make per­fect deci­sions. As long as when you real­ize your deci­sion is imper­fect, you make a change. And so when you reserve your right to change, and in some cas­es say no to some­thing or to you know, Collins would call it, you know, shoot­ing a bul­let and then choos­ing to not to shoot any­more. That is incred­i­bly impor­tant when you have the Epiphany and you just know you need to change. And that’s crit­i­cal. And that’s hard for some peo­ple. But it’s, it’s crit­i­cal if you’re going to con­tin­ue to find ways to improve

Brad Giles 20:29

Yeah, give your­self a license to change your mind, through­out the course of the deci­sion mak­ing process, when the time when you’re launch­ing some­thing, I always say that to lead­ers, like, make sure that you don’t, you don’t come up with an idea. And then sud­den­ly you say, this is our new bright, shiny object, and then sud­den­ly, you get six weeks down the track. And I’m like, Oh, that was such a dumb idea. Why do we do that? Instead, instead, share the process with them and say, This is what we’re think­ing about doing? And how does that res­onate with you. And

Kevin Lawrence 21:06

per­fect, allows you to change your mind allows you to iter­ate allows you to make progress allows you to stop stu­pid mis­takes, or bad deci­sions. And a D risks deci­sion some­times too, if you can do that. So a cou­ple of oth­er tech­niques we’ve list­ed in here is look at the cost of not say­ing no time, ener­gy and mon­ey. We touched on that a lit­tle bit. Yeah. But real­ly what it is there are some­times there is a big cost of con­tin­u­ing to say yes, you know, we have one busi­ness that we worked with, and they had a divi­sion. Just want to per­form. We did the math, it was 75 grand a month. Yeah. Right, and not deal­ing with it. And at some point we final­ly end­ed up did or end­ed up deal­ing with it. So let’s do a cal­cu­la­tion, which we talked about a lit­tle bit ear­li­er on. Anoth­er one I love is is is an con­trast as well. But it’s not now ver­sus No. Yeah, like not now. It’s and you’re not say­ing no, for­ev­er. By the way. Anoth­er tech­nique I’ve learned and with, espe­cial­ly with entre­pre­neur­ial lead­ers are entre­pre­neurs, many don’t like the word No, I actu­al­ly have a plaque. I haven’t set it up yet my new place it says, do it because they tell you you could­n’t write sci­ence in there. But, you know, for a lot of entre­pre­neurs, you say no, and they’re not going to accept it. Yeah, they want to know, in what case? Could we or How is it pos­si­ble? Or? or How much is it going to cost? So what I’ve learned with entre­pre­neurs, instead of say­ing no, and say they have a real­ly bad idea, I’ll just say, Okay, well, how can we take that idea? and have it pro­duced 10 mil­lion a year of prof­it? Yeah. Right. Like if it’s gonna pro­duce a mil­lion, and that’s not enough in the con­text of their busi­ness, just ask­ing a ques­tion and rais­ing it up. So rais­ing the bar, ver­sus just say­ing, no, that’s not going to work? Because it’s even though it might be true. Some­times it does­n’t land so well.

Brad Giles 23:04

Yeah, I like that one. I like that one a lot. Equal­ly. The pre­vi­ous one, you men­tioned it, just to reit­er­ate, there is a cost that we are bear­ing, there’s a cost of time, there’s a cost of mon­ey. Think about if I am or I’m not say­ing no. Like, is this stop­ping me? Or is this cost­ing me more time or more mon­ey? This is the con­straints that we’ve all got. And of course, then the last one that we’ve got is Jim Collins, stop this. So this isn’t nec­es­sar­i­ly No, but this is apply­ing this prin­ci­ple in a slight­ly dif­fer­ent way. So that we’re able to say, Okay, so what are the things that I need to stop? Or say no to? So what are the things that that are con­sum­ing too much time or mon­ey, or ener­gy is we just kind of allud­ed to? So the gym con­stant­ly is a great, great tool to force you to fig­ure out what to say no to cre­ate a list.

Kevin Lawrence 24:04

Yeah, and get­ting teams to go through and brain­storm and have every­one com­mit to one thing they can say no to them­selves, which is healthy to free up band­width in this sys­tem. And then have them rec­om­mend the top things that the com­pa­ny could say no to. Great list, lots of good think­ing. So just to kind of sum­ma­rize real quick­ly that it’s about say­ing no, and real­ly the prin­ci­ple is that we have lim­it­ed resources. And if we say yes to some things, and don’t say if we don’t say no, and end up say­ing yes, we’re say­ing no to a bunch of oth­er things, because of our finite resources that we have, and every­one has fun, and it might be okay. And maybe you can pull it off and do both things. And then and the oth­er thing is, is that you can also fill the buck­et with mediocre things ver­sus leav­ing room for awe­some­ness and this is the buck­et of your life or your work. And you’ll say yes to one thing say no to one oth­er. We Talk about some­times under pres­sure, we say yes and almost under duress or social pres­sure. And we talked about, you know, hey, let me think about that, or I don’t real­ly do that, or I’m not inter­est­ed, or let me dis­cuss it. But if you’re real­ly feel pres­sure, some­times defer­ring it to some­body else, I real­ly want to cov­er num­ber three,

Brad Giles 25:23

when some­thing goes too far, and it needs to be stopped, some­times things just keep on going. And then next was stuck on mak­ing a deci­sion. So some­times we can get analy­sis paral­y­sis, and we can be in this kind of mid­dle spot between yes and no. And we need to force our­selves to say it’s hell, yes, or hell no. And it’s okay to do that. Next, and some­times you just need to change your mind, you’ve got to leave your­self, the space, the capa­bil­i­ty to be able to force your­self to say, you know what, we tried it. And now we’re going a dif­fer­ent way. And that’s okay. And then we just went through a few dif­fer­ent types of tech­niques. For exam­ple, not now, how to make it big­ger, bet­ter, faster, instead of No, rather than say­ing, No, we can look at it to kind of apply a third ele­ment into this no con­cept. So yeah, that I think that kind of sums up where we’re at. Exact­ly. And

Kevin Lawrence 26:27

the final thing is that I moved around them list their bread and but­ter is the stock list by Jim Collins. I was sort­ing. But it’s the stock list by Jim Collins and just get­ting as a reg­u­lar activ­i­ty, whether it’s at the end of a quar­ter­ly meet­ing, or just hav­ing teams think about what they need to say no to because it’s not nat­ur­al. And orga­ni­za­tions get bogged down with a bunch of stuff that just does­n’t need to hap­pen. Well, it was a good chat about No. So thanks for lis­ten­ing every­one. This has been the growth whis­pers pod­cast with Brad Giles and Kevin Lawrence. And you can reach Brad at evo­lu­tion part­ners comm​.au and myself, Kevin at Lawrence and co calm and the YouTube ver­sions just search for the growth whis­pers on YouTube. Have an awe­some week­end that we hope you prac­tice say­ing no more often than you might have. Oth­er­wise, have a great one.