Podcast Ep 96 | Three Business Growth Barriers

When scal­ing a busi­ness, there are three bar­ri­ers to growth that lead­ers must navigate.

1. Scal­able Infra­struc­ture — The lack of sys­tems and struc­tures to han­dle the com­plex­i­ties in com­mu­ni­ca­tion and deci­sions that come with growth.
2. Mar­ket Dynam­ics — The fail­ure to address the increased com­pet­i­tive pres­sures that build (and erode) mar­gins as you scale.
3. Lead­er­ship — The inabil­i­ty to hire or devel­op enough lead­ers who have the capa­bil­i­ty to man­age, del­e­gate and con­tin­ue to grow lead­er­ship under­neath them.

This week on the pod­cast Brad Giles and Kevin Lawrence dis­cuss how each of these bar­ri­ers affects a grow­ing company.

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Kevin Lawrence 00:13

Wel­come to the Growth Whis­per­ers pod­cast where every­thing we talk about is about build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies. Because that’s some­thing that Brad, my co host and I are very pas­sion­ate about and enjoy see­ing com­pa­nies do con­tin­ue to build for future years, gen­er­a­tions, decades. So I’m here with my co host, Brad Giles, how you doing today?

Brad Giles 00:35

Very good. Thank you. Things are very good in this part of the world, fam­i­ly’s good. How are you doing Kev?

Kevin Lawrence 00:43

Same, I’m doing quite well. Look­ing for­ward to the show — what’s the top­ic today?

Brad Giles 01:02

Today we’re talk­ing about an inter­est­ing sub­ject that is a lit­tle bit like the glass ceil­ing, that many lead­ers can’t see it. But these are real bar­ri­ers. So today, we’re talk­ing about the three main bar­ri­ers to con­sis­tent growth.

Kevin Lawrence 01:26

Awe­some. So Brad your word of the day today, or phrase, what is it?

Brad Giles 01:32

Its native genius. Native genius comes from a friend of ours, Liz Wise­man, and a book called Mul­ti­pli­ers. And it’s this con­cept where each per­son has a sin­gle thing that they do real­ly, real­ly well with­out even hav­ing to try that hard at it. And I was work­ing ear­li­er today through with a leader talk­ing about one of the team’s native genius.

Kevin Lawrence 02:00

Awe­some. Well, inter­est­ing­ly, my word of the day is peo­ple pow­er, and how the right peo­ple pow­er a busi­ness and make just amaz­ing things hap­pen. And I’ve been think­ing about it lots, because I look at the, you know, the clients and the CEOs and execs that I work with. And the best ones are such pow­er­ful forces of mak­ing good things hap­pen. Most of them me like being around them, they bring the best out in you, you bring the best out of them, but just it’s, you know, peo­ple pow­er and the pow­er of just awe­some peo­ple. And you know, to weave that togeth­er, Brad, peo­ple pow­er and the pow­er of that native genius, when you’re lever­ag­ing that, ooh, a whole bunch of peo­ple lever­ag­ing the native genius, look out. The oth­er thing about it too, though, is it also is infec­tious. Like it mul­ti­plies you, when you’re around the right peo­ple. There’s peo­ple that dread work­ing with their teams, or the peo­ple they work with, because they prob­a­bly got the wrong peo­ple. But peo­ple give you ener­gy and inspi­ra­tion and you lift each oth­er up. It’s awe­some. All right, let’s jump into the bar­ri­ers of growth. And the three bar­ri­ers, which these are things we see all the time in com­pa­nies. And when we go into com­pa­nies that are hav­ing a rough patch, often we’re try­ing to fig­ure okay, what’s real­ly going on here? Yeah, and you know, and real­ly, it’s, which of these three things are at play, that would real­ly get in their way of con­tin­u­ing to grow. And some­times it takes a bit of dig­ging and a bit of work. It’s some­times it’s hard to tell. And, and often, we’re, you know, when we go into com­pa­nies that are thriv­ing and boom­ing when we start work­ing with them, we’re try­ing to look out and pre­vent these bar­ri­ers smack­ing us and knock­ing us back and slow­ing us down.

Brad Giles 03:54

Yeah, and that’s why I use the anal­o­gy of the glass ceil­ing, because you might not even know that these things are slow­ing you down. Yeah, that’s kind of like you said, that’s what you and I are always on the look­out for what is slow­ing this down? What are the things that don’t seem to be right, and it can be a lit­tle bit con­fronta­tion­al, some­times it can be chal­leng­ing for a leader to look and say, Gee, I did­n’t think about that. Or I thought that we were doing that real­ly, real­ly well.

Kevin Lawrence 04:27

Yep, yep. It’s real­ly inter­est­ing stuff. And the thing is like the glass ceil­ing, if you can’t see it, you can’t know its impact on you until it’s too late and it real­ly hurt. So let’s dig into the first one and it sounds very indus­tri­al and offi­cial steel bowl infra­struc­ture. But real­ly, this is about the sys­tems and tools that enable peo­ple to work in a coor­di­nat­ed fash­ion and eas­i­ly get the impor­tant things right. You know, instead of hav­ing every­one writ­ing paper receipts seats and paper invoic­es, they get lost or mis­cal­cu­lat­ed, or you know, all kinds of things, they have this thing called account­ing sys­tems, right. And then name account­ing sys­tems to make sure things are sys­tem­at­ic and done the same way. And then there’s, you know, the train­ing of get­ting the peo­ple to use the sys­tem the same way. And again, there’s, there’s mul­ti­ple lay­ers and tools, but it’s about find­ing ways to stream­line the com­plex­i­ty and cre­ate con­sis­tent­ly excel­lent outputs.

Brad Giles 05:28

And that’s the key word isn’t it? It’s com­plex­i­ty, because when you’re doing $50,000, a year in rev­enue, things might not be that com­plex, you can get away with a lot of things, the demands, or maybe not that much, but then you go up to a mil­lion rev­enue a year, 5 mil­lion, 10 mil­lion, 20 mil­lion. And at every sin­gle stage, there is more com­plex­i­ty, there is more com­mu­ni­ca­tion that’s required, every time you’re adding a new per­son, or even per­haps adding a new cus­tomer. And all of these com­plex­i­ties require deci­sion mak­ing, and that deci­sion mak­ing adds to the prob­lems. And if you can’t over­come that, if you can’t, if you can’t ensure that your team are able to freely scale through those with your sys­tems, because you’re using the old sys­tems, going back to your you know, paper account­ing, you’re not going to get there, you’re not going to con­tin­ue to grow.

Kevin Lawrence 06:31

And then the oth­er part is, and you know, every­one talks about ERPs, for exam­ple, to man­age the back end of the busi­ness, the thing is, you get to a point where you get big­ger, and if you’re on too sim­ple of a sys­tem, you actu­al­ly can’t get the data, you need to make deci­sions. And it’s just to say that, you know, you’ve got a cou­ple of 100 dif­fer­ent skews that you sell. And dur­ing a cou­ple of dif­fer­ent states or provinces or regions. And in dif­fer­ent types of cus­tomers with dif­fer­ent pric­ing mech­a­nisms, and dis­count­ing mech­a­nisms, you start lay­er­ing all these things in, and you try to want to under­stand prof­itabil­i­ty by a SKU, or by a cus­tomer or by a sales rep. Some­times you can’t get that you actu­al­ly can’t even get the infor­ma­tion. And you can have mil­lions of dol­lars of addi­tion­al costs or loss­es or oppor­tu­ni­ties that you can’t even see. Yeah, and so that’s why it’s as com­pa­nies get more com­plex. Basi­cal­ly, as things get more com­plex, we need sys­tems to make it more sim­ple. And that’s all it all sounds great. But you know, most peo­ple have been a part of a Sales­force imple­men­ta­tion or an ERP imple­men­ta­tion, or that has gone absolute­ly wrong. They install what should be a great sys­tem or tool, but it’s not built prop­er­ly. And it actu­al­ly builds in way more com­plex­i­ty and puts the busi­ness back­wards, assum­ing it does­n’t fail. And then you know, that there’s one prob­lem some­times, or some­times they do install, and they set it up per­fect­ly, but then peo­ple aren’t trained on it. And peo­ple don’t under­stand. I mean, these back end sys­tems, it’s seri­ous, seri­ous work to get them right, and to get the val­ue out of them. And that’s why, you know, there’s pro­grams like, you know, Lean and Six Sig­ma that become pop­u­lar, they in them­selves can become their own clus­ter bombs, because they them­selves can become addi­tion­al com­plex­i­ty if they’re not done. Right. And they can be awe­some if they are par­tic­u­lar­ly lean if it’s done, right. There’s just it’s good.

Brad Giles 08:30

There’s a client that I work with here. Now, he’s expand­ed into state and he’s is con­tin­u­ing to do that. And he’s now his roadmap is say­ing that we’re going to expand inter­na­tion­al­ly. And it comes with a whole set of com­plex­i­ties that his infra­struc­ture might not be able to effi­cient­ly han­dle. Okay. So rather than doing 1 mil­lion in the new coun­try that we’re look­ing to go to, he might only be able to do three or 400,000. And that’s kind of what we’re talk­ing about. And that’s not because the sales team or the prod­uct isn’t com­pe­tent. It’s because there’s a whole range of new require­ments in that region that the infra­struc­ture that he’s got can’t deal with.

Kevin Lawrence 09:18

Yeah, and for exam­ple, with some busi­ness­es, because of the com­plex­i­ty of oper­at­ing in a dif­fer­ent coun­try with dif­fer­ent poli­cies and require­ments and report­ing and all of these oth­er things. Some also say that, you know, like one of my clients is mak­ing the move into anoth­er coun­try. They know unless they do 30 or 40 mil­lion, if they can’t do it, because the sys­tems the cost of set­ting up all the sys­tems that they need in a new coun­try. I think I think was 38 mil­lion was the point. If we can’t do that vol­ume in the first cou­ple years. We can’t we just can’t do it. It won’t work because they can’t give the right invest­ment to get it off the ground. It’s fas­ci­nat­ing and So the with­in scal­able infra­struc­ture there is the tool set. That’s one piece. Yeah. Then the oth­er piece is the humans mas­ter­ing the toolset and agree­ing on, on how we’re going to use this con­sis­tent­ly. So that’s a sec­ond piece. And then the third is actu­al­ly stream­lin­ing and refin­ing sys­tems. Because if you’ve got crap­py sys­tems, but you auto­mate them in a toolset, and then every­one uses them in the old way they used to, you’re just kind of sys­tem­atiz­ing garbage. So you often need to stream­line and sim­pli­fy the sys­tem. So there’s a lot of dif­fer­ent vari­ables in this, and gen­er­al­ly, the lead­ers need to ded­i­cate time to get­ting this stuff, right.

Brad Giles 10:58

And then con­tin­u­ing to dial it in to make sure that it works, and spend time train­ing and trou­bleshoot­ing and work­ing togeth­er being real­ly obser­vant. Like where are the rocks are the block­ages that are stop­ping our sys­tems, our process­es, every­thing that we’re doing, from being as effi­cient and effec­tive as they can. You know, the, you said, the tools that we use, I mean, we talk about peo­ple strat­e­gy, exe­cu­tion, and cash as being the key tools that you’ve got to get right. And then when you apply those back to that scal­able infra­struc­ture, that’s what we’re talk­ing about, right? If your peo­ple aren’t right, if your strat­e­gy, your exe­cu­tion, and your cash sys­tem isn’t right, that you’re not going to be able to have that scal­able infra­struc­ture, with­in the con­text, it’s the tools in that set that make it work.

Kevin Lawrence 11:49

It is. Yeah, and last thing, I’ll just show you the oth­er pieces. And this dri­ves me crazy, because the peo­ple that lead these projects need to be mas­ters and appre­ci­ate sim­plic­i­ty. And unfor­tu­nate­ly, when the soft­ware peo­ple come in to give you the demo of all the cool stuff that your soft­ware can do, if you imple­ment half of their ideas, you’ll gen­er­al­ly have a hor­ri­ble sys­tem, because it’d be real­ly cool and way too com­plex. And the idea of all of these things and sys­tems, what is the min­i­mum, we need to do a great job for the cus­tomer? Right? The min­i­mum to do a great job for the cus­tomer and man, do I ever see peo­ple blow the stuff up, and it’s usu­al­ly the peo­ple that get so excit­ed about the sys­tems, because they want to do all these cool things. And they gen­er­al­ly, you know, they can eas­i­ly make a mess. And, you know, one of my clients and anoth­er coun­try, we’re doing an Ora­cle imple­men­ta­tion. And, you know, every­body wants to get in there, and cus­tomize and do all this cool stuff. He said, we’re basi­cal­ly going I think he called it a white label out of the box, what Ora­cle does out of the box, we are going to make the fewest revi­sions pos­si­ble. And try and like basi­cal­ly, Ora­cle’s fig­ured out how to set up a pret­ty good sys­tem. Yeah, it was vanil­la, I think was vanil­la, would he call it? And basi­cal­ly is to, to basi­cal­ly not try and show how smart we are and how spe­cial we are by over com­pli­cat­ing the sys­tem. Try and do it the absolute most basic possible.

Brad Giles 13:25

Yeah, yeah. So that’s num­ber one scal­able infra­struc­ture, you’ve got to have sys­tems and struc­tures that can han­dle the com­plex­i­ties as you grow. So num­ber two, is mar­ket dynam­ics. So as you grow, there will be increased com­pet­i­tive pest pres­sures, par­don me. That, that may erode mar­gins as you con­tin­ue to grow. So you’re able to han­dle the mar­ket dynam­ics with all of the sys­tems and the tools and the peo­ple strat­e­gy exe­cu­tion cash that you’ve got.

Kevin Lawrence 14:05

Yeah, and it’s basi­cal­ly what we’ve talked about in past episodes, can you main­tain your com­pet­i­tive advan­tage? Yeah, right. And, you know, a lot of peo­ple because of desire to growth, have to grow. And, and par­tic­u­lar­ly because sales­peo­ple want to hit their tar­gets, and then they start going from instead of, we’ll call it tro­phy hunt­ing, the cool core cus­tomers, they just start try­ing to take any­thing and I remem­ber one of our clients, um, owned a very pre­mi­um brand in the cloth­ing indus­try, very pre­mi­um. And, and they were so aggres­sive on their growth tar­gets and every­thing. I start­ed see­ing this these things show up in, you know, these low end they’ll a step up from $1 store in the mall. Wow. And I would see this pre­mi­um prod­uct in there, and I saw it every­where. And basi­cal­ly, they just sold it any any­one would take it, they sold it. And when you’re in the pre­mi­um space, you can’t have your pre­mi­um prod­uct show­ing up in a dis­count store. It does­n’t work that way now, but they got so excit­ed and it was sell­ing like hot­cakes. But I said to him that, hey, you got to watch it, you’re killing your brand. Because if it’s avail­able there, the cus­tomer who’s gonna buy it in a pre­mi­um loca­tion and sees it there, it’s it takes away that takes the shine off the brand. So the point of it is, is that to main­tain that com­pet­i­tive advan­tage and to keep true to who you are? Yeah, peo­ple start chas­ing vol­ume and that sort of like any cus­tomers a good cus­tomer, and they can eas­i­ly when you start, you know, com­modi­tiz­ing your­self, there’s more pric­ing pres­sure and all those oth­er issues. And it can real­ly hurt a busi­ness because you can’t sus­tain your sales growth because you kind of lose your way.

Brad Giles 15:56

And, and that’s an exam­ple of the glass ceil­ing. Yeah, you can’t sus­tain the growth, right. And that’s what we’re talk­ing about here. Anoth­er way that plays out, again, to your point, if the strat­e­gy isn’t strong enough, is that you put an offer­ing out in the mar­ket, it feels dif­fer­ent, you’re excit­ed about it. And then you kind of as you con­tin­ue to grow, you pop up on the radar of oth­ers, sales teams, in your com­peti­tors. Meet­ings, let’s say, yeah, and then they pull their favourite lever, which is dis­count­ing, so then they drop the price, and then they in sud­den­ly, they’re try­ing to estab­lish a price war between the two of you, because they want to main­tain their mar­ket share. So if you’re start­ing to take mar­ket share off your com­peti­tors, they’re going to begin to pay atten­tion. And then they’re gonna per­haps try to erode mar­gin, right.

Kevin Lawrence 16:51

And if you’re undis­ci­plined enough to fol­low them down that rab­bit hole of a price war, you’re hurt­ing your­self, right, you need to find a dif­fer­ent way to fight a bat­tle. And some­times you might need to do it short term, but it’s a dan­ger­ous, it’s a sign that your strat­e­gy is weak. And one of the things you know, I’ve seen in com­pa­nies, as you grow your mar­gin, your gross mar­gin per­cent­age. And con­sid­er­ing same type of busi­ness, you know, because acquir­ing sim­i­lar amounts of over­head and sup­port and every­thing else, your gross mar­gin should stay the same or go up as a per­cent. That means your strat­e­gy is on tar­get. You know, tru­ly, if you had more sophis­ti­cat­ed sys­tems to mea­sure it, we would look at more of the prof­itabil­i­ty tak­ing in allo­cat­ing the over­heads. Because you can have a busi­ness that nor­mal­ly gen­er­ates 38% gross mar­gin, you could have busi­ness that you’re doing at 20. If it’s a paper trans­ac­tion, whole­sale, and you don’t ever touch it, you could make more mon­ey on the 20% whole­sale deal than you can on the 38% reg­u­lar deal. That’s get­ting a lit­tle more com­pli­cat­ed. That’s like a dif­fer­ent type of busi­ness. But gen­er­al­ly your mark your gross mar­gin should sus­tain. But often as peo­ple go with, you can watch their gross mar­gins start to fall. And it’s a bad sign that you’ve lost your strat­e­gy and lost your dis­ci­pline and your busi­ness. I mean, that’s, or there’s not enough mar­ket to demand your growth, you have to find a market.

Brad Giles 18:19

That’s one of the pri­ma­ry stress tests of a strat­e­gy, will it sus­tain or grow your gross prof­it mar­gin? per­cent? You know, if you’re not con­sid­er­ing that, then is it real­ly a strat­e­gy? You know, like, that’s, that’s what we’re talk­ing about. So, yeah, num­ber one is scal­able infra­struc­ture. And num­ber two, is mar­ket dynam­ics. Okay, these are the three main bar­ri­ers to growth. So what’s num­ber three Kev?

Kevin Lawrence 18:49

is the one we spend all of our time on. The first two, you know, they’re chal­leng­ing, but it’s Peo­ple Pow­er man. It’s enough of the right peo­ple in lead­er­ship posi­tions to lead the com­pa­ny ahead. And, you know, it’s, it’s chal­leng­ing. And, you know, it’s where we put a lot of ener­gy with our clients, mak­ing sure that we’re always devel­op­ing lead­ers and then recruit­ing exter­nal­ly when we need to, but if you can not, I was hav­ing a great chat with a friend over the week­end, who’s got an awe­some busi­ness. He’s doing real­ly, real­ly well with it. And we were just, you know, this is the after din­ner par­ty, late night chat dig­ging into it, and he’s like, he can’t find the lead­ers. He does­n’t have enough lead­er­ship pipeline grow­ing in his busi­ness based on the stages and what he’s doing, most­ly because they’re there. They have a very wide foot­print, they’re not con­cen­trat­ed. And, and we’re talk­ing about, he can’t get them. You know, I was shar­ing with them some of the strate­gies that some of our clients use and gen­er­al­ly, our clients invest heav­i­ly in recruit­ment and devel­op­ment. and there’s no oth­er end. If you’re not just like invest­ing in your CRM or your ERP, or dial­ing your strat­e­gy, it’s, it is a seri­ous invest­ment to build the army to build the team, what­ev­er you want. And, and those that, don’t you, you tap out because you can’t sus­tain the growth. And when you have the right lead­ers, they become part of the growth engine like they pow­er the growth. Yeah, yeah, that is, it’s a very hard one. I was, you know, chat­ting anoth­er client on the week­end as well, who, you know, we built that growth engine, and we helped them to recruit onboard. 20 new lead­ers in this com­pa­ny. Yeah. And we were screen­ing them all the talk read­ing and dial­ing it in and build a world class team took a few years. But it was a heavy invest­ment. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s very excit­ing. But oth­er­wise, you can’t, you can’t, the growth won’t work.

Brad Giles 20:56

It won’t. And the key here is that these peo­ple must have the capa­bil­i­ty to del­e­gate and pre­dict, okay, that you’ve got to have enough lead­ers in the busi­ness as you grow. It reminds me I have a friend of mine who lives in San Fran­cis­co in Sil­i­con Val­ley, she was the CEO of a tech com­pa­ny there. And we stud­ied togeth­er in Boston, she, she was grow­ing her com­pa­ny so fast that they were adding one new coun­try every month. And she Yeah, it was It was out­ra­geous growth. And she said, we can, we’ve got every­thing else dialed in, we’ve got a ton of mon­ey behind us, we’ve got the strat­e­gy and the exe­cu­tion and the cash and the sys­tems and the tech and every­thing is right. But the biggest bot­tle­neck becomes being able to hire enough peo­ple. Now you can go to a coun­try, and you can pay the most amount of mon­ey. But that but there’s no, there’s no guar­an­tee that these peo­ple will be excel­lent at being able to del­e­gate and pre­dict, you’ve got to be able to get this bit right.

Kevin Lawrence 22:18

And that’s why in our orga­ni­za­tion, we put so much ener­gy in both tal­ent reviews, review­ing the exist­ing team, and every 90 days doing things to enhance and devel­op the exist­ing team. And get­ting it so that we’re always push­ing to build a stronger, more capa­ble team. And then sec­ond­ly, using top grad­ing, to for the process of iden­ti­fy­ing what great looks like, and then screen­ing peo­ple against that insane­ly thor­ough­ly. So that we, you know, end up with 7080 90% hit rate on putting the right per­son in the job who’s going to be awe­some. And it takes a lit­tle more rig­or upfront. But poor lead, you end up when you have a bet­ter process for build­ing the right team. And even with your project you’re work­ing on around onboard­ing, and then onboard­ing them real­ly well. You get bet­ter results. And you elim­i­nate that bar­ri­er to growth. But gen­er­al­ly, peo­ple don’t invest enough time and ener­gy in this at the small­er stages. That’s why they don’t grow. For our clients that are larg­er, they invest heav­i­ly in this stuff, because they know it’s what’s required. But some peo­ple don’t get that les­son. And they kind of hold them­selves under the glass ceil­ing. And instead of smash­ing through it by just heav­ier invest­ment and capa­bil­i­ty and sup­port to get this stuff done. I mean, in terms of build­ing and build­ing the inter­nal lead­ers and sourc­ing them exter­nal­ly, when they can build them enough.

Brad Giles 23:40

So one way to think about the bar­ri­ers to growth might be if your firm grew 5 or 10%. Last year, maybe the bar­ri­ers to growth are pre­vent­ing you from effec­tive­ly grow­ing and prof­itably grow­ing at 20, or 25%. Maybe that’s the kind of dif­fer­ence that we’re talk­ing about here, which when you then add it up across a num­ber of years can be a mas­sive dif­fer­ence. Yeah.

Kevin Lawrence 24:08

And the oth­er one would be is the amount of stress on you as you grow. Because if you have a spec­tac­u­lar team around you, the growth isn’t as stress­ful because the load is being shared meal is that many hands make for light work. A load is being shared across the team. The oth­er vari­able could be you might not have the team struc­tured, right? You might have great peo­ple, but it might not be struc­tured right to lever­age the strengths of the team going back to peo­ple’s native genius­es and they’ve been lever­aged in it. Yeah, yeah.

Brad Giles 24:39

It’s very inter­est­ing. And so three main bar­ri­ers to growth. Think about a glass ceil­ing. These are the things you might not be able to see them. These are the things that might be stop­ping you grow­ing, num­ber one, scal­able infra­struc­ture, the lack of sys­tems and struc­tures to han­dle the com­plex­i­ties in com­mu­ni­ca­tion and deci­sion that come with growth. Num­ber two mar­ket dynam­ics, the fail­ure to address the increased com­pet­i­tive pres­sures that build and erode mar­gins as you scale. Then Kev­in’s going to walk us through num­ber three.

Kevin Lawrence 25:12

Lead­er­ship, as we’ve been talk­ing about, and which I’m very pas­sion­ate about. You just don’t have enough of the right peo­ple. You can’t grow them, or source them in the mar­ket. Peo­ple that can be great lead­ers and man­age work, del­e­gate work and make things make sure things that are done amaz­ing­ly well. And ide­al­ly, at the same time con­tin­u­ing to grow lead­ers under­neath them. Very good. Very good.

Brad Giles 25:35

Good episode. Good to chat. Hope­ful­ly, as a lis­ten­er, this has helped you some way to think about what might be slow­ing your growth. So this has been the Growth Whis­per­ers if you’d like to see us, you can watch us on Youtube. Obvi­ous­ly, just search the growth whis­per­ers there. You can find Kevin and his very inter­est­ing newslet­ter at Lawrence and co​.com you can find myself in my equal­ly inter­est­ing newslet­ter, that evo­lu­tion part​ners​.com​.au This has been the Growth Whis­per­ers with Kevin and Brad, love­ly to chat to you today. Have your­self a great week.