Podcast EP 137 | The Four Forces of Growth

This week we’re talk­ing about a new book that Kevin is work­ing on enti­tled The Four Forces of Growth. We talk about the four forces, why they mat­ter and what you can do to focus on growth.

Read more about it on Kev­in’s pre­vi­ous blog post on the same sub­ject here.

EPISODE TRAN­SCRIPT

Please note that this episode was tran­scribed using an AI appli­ca­tion and may not be 100% gram­mat­i­cal­ly cor­rect – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Kevin Lawrence 00:13

Wel­come to The Growth Whis­per­ers pod­cast where every thing we talk about is about build­ing endur­ing great com­pa­nies. And there’s some­thing that both Brad and I get a kick out of it see­ing com­pa­nies that con­tin­ue to go and build for years, decades, gen­er­a­tions, in some cas­es and see­ing those busi­ness­es thrive over time. We just get a kick out of it and that’s why we like talk­ing about it, shar­ing the things we learn, work­ing from com­pa­nies that are doing it, and even things we study from oth­er experts that help com­pa­nies in this path. So I’m Kevin Lawrence here in a place called Kelow­na, British Colum­bia, Cana­da, actu­al­ly in a small town out­side of Kelow­na called Peach­land. And Brad is down in Perth, Aus­tralia. Brad, how’s it going today?

Brad Giles 00:55

It’s going very good. I’m very inter­est­ed in this con­ver­sa­tion. And just the think­ing that you’ve had around this, and by all accounts, and I don’t think it’s just you the this has had quite a quite a good res­o­nant with the audi­ence. That audi­ences have real­ly kind of got a lot out of this. So I’m quite inter­est­ed to dig into it today.

Kevin Lawrence 01:19

Yeah, me too. I am. Hmm.

Brad Giles 01:22

So let’s do that. Let’s jump into it. So we thought we’d adopt a slight­ly dif­fer­ent for­mat today. Rather than just hear Kevin telling us about it. We thought that because it’s Kev­in’s mate­r­i­al, he’s come up with it. And and as I said, it’s, it’s been quite suc­cess­ful with audi­ences. We thought what we’d do is, I’d be ask­ing Kev­in’s Kevin ques­tions about it, and giv­ing him the oppor­tu­ni­ty to explain the mod­el and why it works. So look, we’re always up for try­ing dif­fer­ent things. Let’s see if it works in could crash and burn, but hope­ful­ly, we’ll be able to get through till the end. Yeah, so tell us, Kevin, what is the four forces of growth? What’s the, you know? Why is it an issue? What is it?

Kevin Lawrence 02:17

Well, it goes back, if we go back a few years, even pre COVID, I start­ed work­ing on this and think­ing about my, you know, I’ve had a pas­sion about what caus­es peo­ple to con­tin­ue to grow and thrive in their careers. And that led to the book your oxy­gen mask first. And why some peo­ple burn and some peo­ple, you know, some peo­ple thrive and oth­er peo­ple burn out or bonk along the way. And they and I’ve got a sim­i­lar inter­est in the same thing with com­pa­nies. How is it that some CEOs con­tin­ue to lead their com­pa­nies to growth, and oth­ers don’t. And I’ve been fas­ci­nat­ed by it. And I was think­ing about it one day, and I did a lot of do and now again, I did before a lot of trav­el­ing, fly­ing on planes and fas­ci­nat­ed with air­planes. And you know, your oxy­gen mask first came from it came from air­planes, and I start­ed going like, you know, I know a lit­tle bit of a flight. But what makes an air­plane fly fly­ing on air­planes hard, lead­ing a busi­ness is hard. And I stum­bled onto the four forces of flight, which is what it is that actu­al­ly makes an air­plane fly, the force is a pilot has to work with and fight to make a make a plane, get into the air, get alti­tude, and then stay­ing here for a real­ly, real­ly long time. As you know, going back to the Wright broth­ers who kind of got going ear­ly, ear­ly, prob­a­bly like about 100 years ago. And so I took that the think­ing about what makes a plane work, to real­ly what a CEO has to do, to make a busi­ness work. And that’s where the four forces of growth came into real­ly direct­ly mod­elled against the four forces of flight.

Brad Giles 03:43

Awe­some. And so is there any chance poten­tial­ly, per­haps, in the future, that, that we may be blessed by anoth­er book from Kevin?

Kevin Lawrence 03:53

Yeah, I’m work­ing on it. I’m just get­ting things pre­pared to start run­ning it next year, I’m col­lect­ing a bunch of data and infor­ma­tion right now. And I’m doing I’m test­ing the mate­r­i­al in talks that I’m doing and with groups that I’m work­ing with. And things that got my atten­tion is put a lot of time into build­ing the mod­el and sim­pli­fy­ing the mod­el. But it’s real­ly res­onat­ing with peo­ple in ses­sions. And I noticed, you know, a com­pa­ny was at recent­ly, and, you know, in two dif­fer­ent meet­ing rooms, it’s on the white­boards where the CEO is, has been dri­ving it and using it in con­ver­sa­tions. And you know, in our space, and when you cre­ate a tool, you know, that when peo­ple run with it on their own, that there’s some­thing there and the feed­back I get so yeah, it’s, it’s my project for 2023.

Brad Giles 04:34

Awe­some. We should always all bear in mind that it takes, you know, a year or even a cou­ple of years to get a book out. But I’m excit­ed to dig into these things. So why do you think that it’s res­onat­ing with audiences?

Kevin Lawrence 04:50

One, it’s sim­ple. And two, they relate to it. They can see them­selves in it. Yeah, because it’s easy. to self assess and place your­self in the mod­el and see where you’re at.

Brad Giles 05:03

Yeah, okay, that’s good. That’s good. All right, let’s jump into it. What are the four forces? Tell us, tell us what are the four forces?

Kevin Lawrence 05:12

I’ll put it on screen for peo­ple that are that are able to see on YouTube. But basi­cal­ly, you know, for planes, what pulls them up into the air is the lift of the wings called lift as the force. And in for us in busi­ness, that is oppor­tu­ni­ties, where our heads lift up, we look at oppor­tu­ni­ties, pos­si­bil­i­ties, and things that we can do to cap­i­tal­ize on in a busi­ness. What takes the plan for­ward is courage, or sor­ry, is thrust. And I call that courage in this mod­el. So when you have oppor­tu­ni­ties, you’re look­ing up at things that you can do any have courage to act on them, that’s where growth comes from. And it’s only where growth comes from oppor­tu­ni­ties and courage cre­ates growth.

Brad Giles 05:55

Could I will per­haps, sor­ry, kept cor­rect, per­haps just quick­ly inter­pret what I can see on the screen for those who don’t have a screen. So we’ve got two lines, one is ver­ti­cal and one is hor­i­zon­tal. At one end of the ver­ti­cal line at the top is oppor­tu­ni­ties, the oppo­site end of that as prob­lems on the hor­i­zon­tal line, at one end, on the right, we’ve got courage. And at the oth­er end of that line, we’ve got fear. Would you like to elab­o­rate on that for us, please?

Kevin Lawrence 06:25

Yeah, it’s basi­cal­ly just like a sim­ple four box type mod­el. And so at the top is oppor­tu­ni­ties, and for­ward is courage. And that’s where growth is. Below that, which in air­plane lan­guage, or is, is, wait, wait, that pulls the plane down, or grav­i­ty in dif­fer­ent ver­sions of the mod­el? Well, in our world, that’s prob­lems, that pulls our head down, we start look­ing at our toes and try­ing to fix stuff. So it’s great, you know, solv­ing prob­lems is a real­ly inter­est­ing and poten­tial­ly dan­ger­ous thing for peo­ple. But when you’re in prob­lem solv­ing mode, and you have courage, you fix stuff, and you improve stuff. And you it’s that I call that mode and mod­el improve­ment. And your mar­gins get bet­ter your sys­tems get bet­ter, there’s less fric­tion in the busi­ness, you get bet­ter prof­itabil­i­ty. Tt’s all real­ly, real­ly good. But it’s too good some­times, and peo­ple can over invest ener­gy in improve­ment. And if you invest all of your ener­gy in improve­ment, you’ll get all kinds of quick wins, and you will get effi­cien­cies and improve your income state­ment and your bal­ance sheet. But you won’t nec­es­sar­i­ly get growth.

Brad Giles 07:40

So I love accoun­tants, but that would be like hand­ing the reins over to the accoun­tants to run the busi­ness. They’re going to bring in new efficiencies.

Kevin Lawrence 07:53

So the idea is like for real­ly suc­cess­ful busi­ness­es that con­tin­ue to grow, they run a lit­tle loose, it’s messy. And if you clean up all the prob­lems, you won’t have any time to focus on growth. And that’s the that’s on the front end of the mod­el is is that, you know, CEOs and some execs need to spend quite a bit of time in the growth quad­rant, but they often get pulled into the improve­ment quad­rant, they often get pulled down into prob­lems and their egos feel good fix­ing those prob­lems. And often, many of them need to get fixed. And many of them don’t. And many of them don’t need the atten­tion of the CEO. So for exam­ple, one CEO I work with who real­ly got me think­ing about some of these things years ago, he’s like, to his team look great. ​“Hey, you let me know when you got any prob­lems. And when he got prob­lems, come down to my office between eight and 830 any morn­ing, and that’s prob­lem time. And that’s a great time to come and get your prob­lem solved.” He comes in at nine.

Brad Giles 08:55

I knew that was coming.

Kevin Lawrence 08:57

Of course. And and he says though, but this is basi­cal­ly, I’m not inter­est­ed in your prob­lems. But you got some­thing you want to sell. You want some­thing that in this mod­el, if it’s in a growth quad­rant, I’ll stay up all night with you. I’ll work with you day and night and we’ll sell so it’s sell­ing a new prod­uct, a new ser­vice a new to exist­ing cus­tomers, or sell­ing to a new cus­tomer or expand­ing a cus­tomer into a dif­fer­ent region. Yeah. So if you want to sell and that’s what grows and this cel was bril­liant is bril­liant. But his busi­ness was not as prof­itable as it could have been. Yeah, he he did­n’t put too much ener­gy put enough ener­gy into improve­ment in New York, but he kept a lot of ener­gy on growth so they could grow. And so I call it he ran it a lit­tle loose a lit­tle fast so it could grow ver­sus clan and many naïve exec­u­tives, CEOs, lead­ers, man­agers. put too much ener­gy and improve­ment and under allo­cate resources to growth. And then they won­der why they don’t grow. The prob­lem is the deci­sions have a deferred impact. And you can pull all your resources down to improve­ment right now. And you’ll still get some growth if you have it. But it’ll grad­u­al­ly fade. It’s like grad­u­al­ly pulling back on the throt­tle of the plane in the nose will grad­u­al­ly come down. You might not even notice it.

Brad Giles 10:27

But you’re not growing.

Kevin Lawrence 10:30

It will start to fade the engine, the engine is get­ting less and less fuel and it will start to fade over time.

Brad Giles 10:36

Yeah, I remem­ber I took a call from a busi­ness own­er, gee it would have been five or six years ago. And he’d said exact­ly to the map that he that to me, he had a $15 mil­lion busi­ness. And he said, Brad, look, it’s it’s awe­some. We hand­ed over the reins to our CFO, and he’s tak­en over and he’s run and it’s been great for four or five years now. But the prob­lem is we’ve, we’re more prof­itable in gross prof­it mar­gin, per­cent and dol­lars than we’ve ever been in our life. But we’re not grow­ing the top line. Yeah. And it’s, it’s doing our head in, because like, we’ve got every­thing we always want­ed in terms of the prof­itabil­i­ty. But as entre­pre­neurs, we know that we’ve got to keep growing.

Kevin Lawrence 11:24

Yep. And they most like­ly got focused too much on improv­ing things. I’ve got one I worked I remem­ber at the time I was sick to my stom­ach. It was a fam­i­ly busi­ness that grew 50% year on year. And when they hit 50 mil­lion, it stopped. It plateaued. And so I’m meet­ing with them, and they call me in because they want­ed some help to reignite the growth. And I’m talk­ing to them, like, you know, well, how about cus­tomers? That parts a guar­an­tee. They’re like a tap. When we want more, we just turn it on. I was like, okay, and these weren’t arro­gant peo­ple. But that was a very arro­gant state­ment. Any­ways as we start­ed to dig into it, they, in their case, lost sight of their cus­tomers, they got so inter­nal­ly focus, so much improve­ment focus that they weren’t lis­ten­ing to the cus­tomers. And the cus­tomers were a big source of refer­rals and their growth and the cus­tomers were pissed off. So I said, Hey, you know, Can I can I see the cus­tomer feed­back? Oh, yeah, for sure. Long sto­ry short, I got the feed­back. And I was fly­ing back. And I was on the plane read­ing through spread­sheets, it was was a it was paper, thick doc­u­ment, you know, 30 lines, a page, mul­ti­ple pages. I got to page three and I was like a car­toon char­ac­ter with steam com­ing out in eight years, I was so angry. The cus­tomers were yelling and scream­ing off the page at me about a cou­ple of core things. But the and basi­cal­ly, the cus­tomer said screw you and stopped refer­ring and stopped expand­ing the busi­ness. And it was a refer­ral based busi­ness. Because they were pissed off about stuff. But the team was so inter­nal­ly focused, and I’m not judg­ing them, they had a lot of rea­sons to be inter­nal­ly focused. But they took their eye off the growth, they weren’t talk­ing to the cus­tomers who were their growth engine. And, and the growth stopped. They still had­n’t, okay, and it took them almost three years to get it back to growth again. And they real­ly killed the engine. They basi­cal­ly land­ed the plane of growth, and they had to get the damn thing off the ground again. And it was unfor­tu­nate, great learn­ing for the CEO, but painful because they got they focused on the wrong things.

Brad Giles 13:45

So there’s four forces of growth, you’ve spo­ken about the inter­sec­tion between oppor­tu­ni­ties and courage is growth, you’ve spo­ken about courage and prob­lems leads to improve­ment. So what about the oth­er side of the ledger? What about where we get towards fear?

Kevin Lawrence 14:04

And that’s no throw the mod­el up for a sec­ond. And that’s a real dan­ger in the kind of econ­o­my that our world is going into. The more that fear goes in, some per­son­al­i­ties slow down, and they real­ly slow down and they don’t take as much action and that can be real­ly, real­ly lethal. And so if you’re oppor­tu­ni­ty focused, but you’re very fear­ful, it’s analy­sis paral­y­sis, right? You get stuck in analy­sis mode. And truth is what you read it’s see see­ing the board­rooms again and again, you gen­er­al­ly need to make deci­sions with some­where between 70 and 80% infor­ma­tion. You can’t wait for 100% infor­ma­tion. So you need to do analy­sis, just at some point it does­n’t mat­ter. It’s too much and the per­fec­tion­ism gets in the way. The oth­er is if your fear, fear based and you focus on prob­lems. Well, that’s agony. If you’re fear­ful about prob­lems, you’re just going to loop and stress and noth­ing good is going to come of it. It’s it is this relates to our­selves per­son­al­ly as well as it was with­in the busi­ness. And look, there’s, there’s peo­ple’s jobs like agony, that’s the depart­ment of your chief legal offi­cer, or your Chief Com­pli­ance Offi­cer or your per­son that’s in charge of Legal Com­pli­ance, all those things and, you know, keep­ing us out of trou­ble. We need those peo­ple and analy­sis, that’s the job of the CFO. And improve­ment, that’s the job of the CFO or your VP of ops, or what­ev­er, it hap­pens to be in lots of your exec­u­tives. And obvi­ous­ly, the growth is the CEOs job to spend most of their time. So there’s dif­fer­ent roles in there. But the point of it is, is that you end up over weight­ing in cer­tain areas. And that’s the idea here is that you have too much and you might choose for your busi­ness to put a lit­tle bit more ener­gy and analy­sis. But in this mar­ket, but do it con­scious­ly. I was talk­ing to anoth­er CEO about this oth­er days is going on, you know, the chal­lenges, you know, growth is crit­i­cal. But in a chal­leng­ing mar­ket, there’s way more prob­lems and way more fear. So you’re pulled away from growth. So he goes, log­ic would say that it’s twice as hard to grow in a chal­leng­ing mar­ket, he goes, I think it’s four times because it takes twice as much ener­gy to get the same growth as you would in a boom­ing mar­ket in the chal­leng­ing mar­ket. But you’ve got all this ener­gy being pulled every­where else. So he says, I think it takes four times the ener­gy to stay in growth to keep your hand on the throt­tle and the plane going up in a chal­leng­ing mar­ket. And I think he’s right. So the point of this mod­el is just it’s just aware­ness for peo­ple to see like at the end of the day, and I’ll get some more data. But when the CEOs I’ve talked to so far, they gen­er­al­ly believe that aver­age num­ber is about 60% of their time needs to be in the growth quad­rant six, zero. And I’m hear­ing dif­fer­ent num­bers from dif­fer­ent execs. But it’s well under 50 for an exec­u­tive team on aver­age in growth, but the CEO for sure. About 60 At least.

Brad Giles 17:14

So I’m look­ing at it. And I’m think­ing, Okay, so the CEO is in growth between oppor­tu­ni­ties and courage. A COO might be improve­ment, which is courage and prob­lems. But the ques­tion is, the ques­tion is, how do I avoid analy­sis, paral­y­sis and agony, the things that are on the left hand side of the mod­el, which is between oppor­tu­ni­ties and fear, and fear and prob­lems. How do I avoid those as a leader?

Kevin Lawrence 17:41

That’s the CEOs job is to get peo­ple to make deci­sions to dri­ve for deci­sions, right? And as hav­ing and we’ve talked about this in pre­vi­ous episodes, hav­ing the debates, mak­ing the deci­sions, say­ing, Okay, let’s go. Right. That’s the CEO’s job is to lead peo­ple to deci­sions. No dif­fer­ent than in a pre­vi­ous episode, we talked about musk, Elon Musk, mak­ing some tough deci­sions and say­ing, let’s do this.

Brad Giles 18:08

With hi acqui­si­tion of Twit­ter. Yeah.

Kevin Lawrence 18:11

So it’s so it’s about it’s about the CEO, being in the right mind­set, and hav­ing the right team, but it’s push­ing for deci­sions. Yeah. When the fear kicks in, which it does, if the CEO gets fear­ful and scarce, scarce mind­set, the whole orga­ni­za­tion is going to go that direc­tion. So the CEO’s got­ta keep up the courage and keep peo­ple more for­ward than backwards.

Brad Giles 18:35

And that makes me think about the 20 mile march. Okay, which is con­sis­tent, not too high, not too low, con­sis­tent growth, in the right direc­tion. And that’s, you know, that’s, that’s dri­ven or led by the leader.

Kevin Lawrence 18:51

Yeah, and exact­ly, and the 21 Mile March, lots of our com­pa­nies that we’re talk­ing about that right now with the clients we work with, yeah. And it requires a CEO that can be coura­geous. Inter­est­ing­ly, I came from a meet­ing this morn­ing with one of my clients that we’ve done a lot of work on his bal­ance sheet, and real­ly dialed in his bal­ance sheet over the last year. So he can stay coura­geous. If you have a frag­ile bal­ance sheet, you can’t you know, it’s like if you’ve got a steel hold boat with dou­ble lay­ers of steel, you can go into some areas that might have some debris in the water and not wor­ry about it and maybe bang into a few ice­bergs. If you’ve got a thin paper hold boat, you know, I got a tra­di­tion­al Cana­di­an Canoe made of ani­mal skins stretched over some, some some some branch­es. You’re not going to go bounce against crazy sharp rocks and ice­bergs because it’s gonna rip. It’s not going to work. You’ve got to set your­self up with the struc­ture and have the resources to be coura­geous. And if we look at the research of coura­geous lead­ers, they’re incred­i­bly well pre­pared, well trained and ready to go. Right. And that’s, and that’s and that’s why edu­ca­tion, lead­er­ship, boards of advi­sors, experts, and bal­ance sheet, strong bal­ance sheet make it a hell of a lot eas­i­er to stay coura­geous because you have choic­es. And you know, you’re not going to kill the business.

Brad Giles 20:26

I used to, I’ve still got a say­ing, and that is that if you have a, if you have a strat­e­gy, but you’re wor­ried about mak­ing next week’s pay­roll, the strat­e­gy the you might as well not even have it. Right, because no one cares about the strat­e­gy. No one cares about any­thing, it’s every­thing always comes back to how do we make pay­roll. So you’ve got to have that you got­ta have it is that depth of bal­ance sheet for sure.

Kevin Lawrence 20:56

I love, I love that it was with a client cou­ple weeks ago, and they’re in a busi­ness that’s gonna get impact­ed in this econ­o­my, we know it, we got a bal­ance sheet that makes it not mat­ter. So it’s like, most of our clients have bal­ance sheets. It’s like, okay, we don’t like it, but bring it on. Like, we’ve got cash and access to cash, to be able to weath­er pret­ty well, any storm that is includ­ing things like COVID if it did­n’t go their way. But that’s a lot of work to set them­selves up to win. And this goes back to Collins is work­ing Great by Choice and, and pro­duc­tive para­noia. Right? And, and also just hav­ing incred­i­bly, so again, all that stuff allows you to have courage. Expe­ri­ence, experts. Good.

Brad Giles 21:47

Now, the ques­tion, what are the well inten­tioned things that peo­ple do that hurt com­pa­ny’s growth in this four forces model?

Kevin Lawrence 21:57

They go solve 75 cent prob­lems. And they think that all prob­lems should be solved. And they think that solv­ing prob­lems is a good use of their time. Yeah, it’s all about solv­ing prob­lems. At the end of the day, our job as lead­ers is to teach peo­ple to solve their own prob­lems. We teach our chil­dren to tie their shoes and about what, three, four or five years old? Yeah, like we don’t teach 15 year old, we don’t tie shoes for 15 year old kids. I hope we don’t know. And in busi­ness, some­times we have bad habits. Because Solv­ing prob­lems is so good for the ego. It makes us feel good. So get­ting too involved in prob­lems, and I go back to the sto­ry of seri­ous air­craft and plane metaphor. I’m gonna dig out the case but you know, when they were opti­miz­ing Sir­ius Sir­ius is famous for recre­ation­al air­craft that’s got a para­chute on the plane. And if things go weird, you pull the the para­chute thing I shout out to Ethan Mar­tin, anoth­er advi­sor and coach that you and I know what are the US and Ethan got me to, I told them what my first fly­ing expe­ri­ence when I took fly­ing lessons it did­n’t like it, he goes, ​“you’re in the wrong plane.” To go fly a seri­ous he set it up I went and test drove was Sir­ius. It was amaz­ing. Loved it. But the main thing is if you mess up, you pull the han­dle the para­chute things drops or pres­sure pops out and you land the plane on the ground. You prob­a­bly have to replace the land­ing gear because you’d prob­a­bly break it. But that’s about all your break. Yeah. So the point of it is that when they were opti­miz­ing seri­ous as they became more impor­tant, is they start­ed solv­ing prob­lems that were $6,000 I think it start­ed at 20,000. But then they went down to $6,000, a plane, and then five and then for they left all of the inef­fi­cien­cies. Because at that point, if they’re burn­ing 10 – 20 grand a plane on a mil­lion dol­lar plane, that’s fine. Over time, they will get it but they did­n’t waste time chas­ing 75 cent problems.

Brad Giles 23:53

Hmm. Okay. Very good. So if you would maybe just talk us through the key points, maybe just as we move to close out, just give us the key point sum­ma­ry to close out the four forces here.

Kevin Lawrence 24:07

Sure. Well, I mean, fly­ing a plane, like a like a well well trained pilot is very much like being a CEO or Exec­u­tive. There’s so much to learn to be effec­tive, par­tic­u­lar­ly in tur­bu­lence. And it’s coun­ter­in­tu­itive to con­tin­ue to stay in growth mode. Just like it’s coun­ter­in­tu­itive to stay hard on the throt­tle and gain alti­tude in a crazy tur­bu­lent storm. It’s just because it freaks peo­ple out. And so for effec­tive CEOs find ways to stay in growth mode, which is new rev­enues, adding new rev­enues into the sys­tem from new prod­ucts, new ser­vices, new cus­tomers, new mar­kets. That’s the root of it, and keep­ing the right amount of ener­gy in growth, while you make sure the oth­er areas are tak­en care of. But if you only take care of the oth­er areas of analy­sis and agony and improve­ment Do you ded­i­cate 5% of your ener­gy into growth as a CEO, your growth will die in time. You need to keep enough, what­ev­er is right for your busi­ness and growth.

Brad Giles 25:10

Very good. Thank you very much for forces of growth. I look for­ward to that com­ing out some­time in the future. We want you to take the time to do it right, not quick. When I say that, you know, prob­a­bly on behalf of the audi­ence, because there can be pres­sure to get it out quick. Yeah, so but it’s been awe­some to share the con­cept and get to under­stand the ideas and where it’s head­ing, and I’m sure it’ll evolve over time. So thank you. All right. So as we move to close, my name is Brad Giles. This is The Growth Whis­per­ers in case you had­n’t picked that up yet. We talked about build­ing endear­ing great com­pa­nies. Of course, we’ve been speak­ing to Kevin Lawrence my every week co host, you can find me at evo­lu­tion part​ners​.com​.au And you can find Kevin at Lawrence​and​co​.com. We both have inter­est­ing newslet­ters that we put out each week about all of these kinds of sub­jects that may inter­est you if this is your cup of tea, and you can sub­scribe on our web­sites for those obvi­ous­ly, the YouTube ver­sion is avail­able may be a bit more rel­e­vant for this episode because Kevin shared some slides in this episode. You can find that at YouTube obvi­ous­ly, by search­ing The Growth Whis­per­ers and obvi­ous­ly Sub­scribe and Like where appro­pri­ate to keep get­ting updat­ed. hope that you’ve enjoyed today’s episode. Look for­ward to chat­ting to you again next week. Have a great week.