Jim Collins book Good to Great is one of the all-time business classics due to the size and quality of the research that underpins the principles that he identified in the research about companies that endured and achieved great performance, relative to their peer companies who only achieved good performance.

 In Good to Great, Jim Collins identified seven core principles that great companies excelled at.

In this part two of two episodes, we dig into the seven principles from Good to Great and ask you to rate your firm’s performance on each of these.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Please note that this episode was transcribed using an AI application and may not be 100% grammatically correct – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

 

Kevin (00:00:13) – Hey, and welcome to the Growth Whisperers podcast, where everything we talk about is about, uh, passion we have for building enduring great companies, uh, to the point where people talk about selling a company, and we’re like, what are you doing? I had a conversation with a c e O the other day, Brad, that I’ll tell you about later, but it was like he was talking about selling. I’m like, there’s gotta be a way you don’t have to sell. Cause he doesn’t really want to. So that’s what this podcast is about. I’m Kevin Lawrence here in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, and I’m joined as always with Brad Giles in Perth, Australia. Brad, how is the world treating you today?

 

Brad (00:00:49) – Awesome. I love the way that you’ve told a story before you even said, hello. Uh, I can’t

Kevin (00:00:54) – Even help. I can’t help myself because no, literally, I, I was always talking to the CEO and he goes, at the end of the day, we’re gonna work out some stuff and, uh, we’re just gonna probably figure out how we can sell the business. I’m like, whoa,

Kevin (00:01:05) – Whoa, whoa.

Kevin (00:01:07) – Why? And he explained some complications with shareholders. I’m like, there’s gotta be a way. It’s an amazing, it’s a, it’s an amazing company. I would say it’s very close to a great organization. It’s absolutely enduring. And to me, it’d be a crime to sell it. It’s like, why wouldn’t you keep it into family for decades, aside from the fact that the family has a hard time getting along sometimes. But that’s true of all family businesses anyway, so it just, it reminded me as opening up. So we’re gonna dig into, uh, part two today of Mr. Building Enduring Great Companies, Jim Collins. But before we do, Brad, you, you got a, a word or a phrase of the day you wanna share with where your mindset’s at today?

Brad (00:01:51) – Well, I had one and you just threw it off. So mine is don’t sell. It’s don’t sell. Like, like No, you’ve

Brad (00:01:59) – That before

Brad (00:02:00) – I didn’t. Um, but we work with entrepreneurs and CEOs and leaders all the time, and for many people selling or exiting, they seem to think that is a key part of what you must do. But ex ah, experience tells you that great companies are built over a long period of time, and that flywheel momentum doesn’t necessarily happen. You don’t start a company and sell. That’s, that’s a deal maker. That’s not a business builder.

Kevin (00:02:37) – Yes. Well said. I heard someone the other day, and I’ll, I’ll look up the quote, and they were, um, I will pull this one up. And it was, did I save it on my phone? You know, you see these quotes on social media and stuff? Yes. Uh, this is the, um, uh, this is a remember’s name. This is the, oh, it’s Francois Henry Bemo, and I’m sorry if I mispronounce your name. I’m sure I did. He’s, uh, c e o of the luxury, uh, watchmaker. ADEs pge, uh, a AP watches are some of the most famous watches. They’re some of the most premium priced. And he, a quote from him, the board of directors, meaning the family members have never asked me in my 11 years for any growth percentage terms ever. He said, they have never said, Francois, we want 10 or 15% or more. No, they say, Francois, we still want to be around 200 years from now.

Brad (00:03:41) – Mm-hmm.

Kevin (00:03:42) – Right. That is the mindset of an endur. Now, they’ve already been around for, I think, at least a hundred years. Mm-hmm. And it is one of the most premium sought after brands of watches in the market right now. You know, supply o stripping demand to the point where, for those that aren’t into watches, you know, the, the, the secondary market, these watches are selling for 2, 3, 4 times their original value, like the store value, if you could buy one in store and a waiting list, three years. But yeah, they’re talking about 200 years, and that’s, that’s what we’re about. So my word of the day, I think I’ve already had 4,256 words, is in, in this opening. Mm-hmm. Um,

Brad (00:04:19) – I didn’t notice that. I feel like I,

Kevin (00:04:21) – I’m having, I’m drinking some tea and maybe it’s, I thought it was decaffeinated, but it might be caffeinated. Tell us

Brad (00:04:27) – A story about the tea before we get to Jim Collins.

Kevin (00:04:34) – Well, let me, no, I’m not gonna go there. I do have a great story about tbo, what you

Brad (00:04:37) – Wear, which you wear the day.

Kevin (00:04:39) – Yeah. . Oh, now I’m throwing you off. Uh, you told me my word of the day, um, is passion.

Brad (00:04:46) – Yeah.

Kevin (00:04:47) – I’m full of it right now talking about these principles. I get fired up. It’s why I do what I do. I wanna be a part of building enduring great organizations. And, uh, so it’s, it’s, um, passion. Awesome. Don’t sell passion.

Brad (00:05:04) – Mm-hmm. .

Kevin (00:05:05) – So should we talk about the episode?

Kevin (00:05:06) – Let’s do that. That’ll be nice. So last week, in last week’s episode, last week being one 60, we spoke about rating your firm on Jim Collins. Seven Good to great principles. Um, we couldn’t fit it all into one. So we are carrying that over to this week. Last week of the seven, we spoke about the first three, first one, of course, being, oh, this is from Jim Kahn’s book, good to great. In case I hadn’t fully Yes, yes. Fully confirmed that. So the first one was level five leadership. The second one was first who, then what. And the third one was confront the brutal facts.

Brad (00:05:47) – Now, this week, um, we’ve got four to go through. I think. We don’t need to go through the first three. Kev. We, we, we went through and them in great detail. They’re pretty self-explanatory. Now, this week we start off with this idea of the hedgehog concept. So this comes from a Greek parable about the hedgehog and the fox. Of course, the job of the fox is to eat the hedgehog, and the job of the hedgehog is to not be eaten. And, um, the head, the fox has many, many different, uh, tactics and strategies and all of these different things that the fox tries to do. So he can eat the fox, or she can eat the fox. Uh, eat the hedgehog pardon of me hedgehog. Yep. Yep. And yet, the hedgehog is one very, very simple, uh, strategy, and it works every single time. And that is to bend over when the , when the hedgehog bends over, the spikes come out and it’s, it’s, uh, maybe not undefeatable, but it stops all of the ideas and the tactics that the box has. And that’s the parable, or that’s the metaphor for the mm-hmm. hedgehog concept. It is the one single thing that helps us to win every time.

Kevin (00:07:16) – And it’s so basic and simple where the fox itself gets distracted and runs around in circles and tries things. The hedgehog has one basic move. And, and if we look at enduring great companies, they keep an incredibly simple, and this hedgehog principle helps people to do that. So in the hedgehog, oh, go ahead, Brad.

Brad (00:07:35) – And why is that important? Wh why is it important to have one single move? Because entrepreneurs are by their very nature creative. Yes. Marshall Goldsmith wrote a book called What Got You Here, won’t Get You There. Okay. And, uh, basically the creativity that gets an entrepreneur to take risk, start a business, and to solve all of these problems all along the way, if it’s k not kept in check. What can happen without this discipline of the hedgehog is that suddenly they say, Hey, Kev, I’ve got a good new idea. How about if we start selling liquor? What about mm-hmm. , what about if we start, we could start trading horses, or maybe we could start a motor car manufacturing company, or be

Kevin (00:08:22) – Or build a rocket ship.

Brad (00:08:23) – Yeah, that’d be cool. Or

Kevin (00:08:24) – Open up a business in Africa, and then maybe we’ll go to Russia at the same time.

Brad (00:08:30) – Yeah. That is all born of the great creativity that we love about entrepreneurs, but the problem is that the profit doesn’t stick. When you have people

Kevin (00:08:41) – Get distracted.

Brad (00:08:41) – People get distracted, people are

Kevin (00:08:43) – Pulled in too many directions versus a few things that matter. Yeah. So it’s taking infinite creativity and boiling it down into a few core things to focus on and build discipline. Yeah. So there’s three elements of a hedgehog. It’s what, what can you be the best in the world at? Like, you know, what are your core, core, almost your best competencies? What are you passionate about? Or what, like, what is your purpose as an org to use Jim’s language? And what’s your profit for x? How do you actually make your money? And where should you be looking at driving things to notably improve your profitability per whatever, whatever metric you use it against it for what widget or what item do you look at it against? And you put these three together, it is boils down your business real simply. And at the, at the center of it all, or at the core is sit your behag, your behag should be born from what you can be amazing at what you’re passionate about and what makes your money the best. Be hags fit right into there.

Brad (00:09:45) – Yeah. And

Kevin (00:09:46) – The key is you share. Go ahead, Brad. I, I,

Brad (00:09:48) – I, I guess I like to visualize it as we’re looking through a window in the center of that Venn diagram. If we maintained the discipline around those three areas for 10 to 30 years, what could our b a g be? What could our big hair, ace skull be? Yes.

Kevin (00:10:06) – What’s possible? The key is if we stayed focused on those things and people get distracted like crazy. So it’s simple. And we know the simplicity scales and you know, and again, operationally in companies that we work with, we use it as a touchstone. We go back and look at our hedgehog regularly. We use it to help us build the beehag, but we use it as a touch on to remind us what is our business. Yeah. So that whatever we do needs to fit into it. And, and to quote, you know, the great Jim Collins, again, you know, one of his quotes I just loved, he said, success isn’t about creativity to be creative, that’s to be human Success truly is relentless execution of the boring basics within the hedgehog. He goes, that’s it. If you’re focused on exciting, sexy things, you’re in trouble. Yeah. It’s because at the end of the day, what does the customer want?

Brad (00:11:04) – Usually it’s pretty simple. They, you know, there’s some simple basic things. And if you master those consistently, which is darn hard. Yeah. Um, and as an example, um, to this hedgehog, one of my clients, uh, that I got called in probably working with a client a couple years. He had done some deep, deep strategy work with a very prestigious strategy consultant, was well known in his part of the c e O community. This person was known to do great work. And with all due respect, I looked at the work from a strategy perspective, it was okay. I don’t think it was great, but it was very, very complex. So after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a strategy consultant coming up with very complex work, they couldn’t execute it. They couldn’t. Boy. And finally I said to the CEO O I said, look, just let one of my team go in there.

Kevin (00:12:03) – They will figure it out and find a way to simplify it in the way that we make strategy really simple and execution of it easy or easy. Anyways, it took, it took a period of a few months and one of my team went in and worked with them and dramatically simplified it. And now they can execute it and it’s much easier for them to win. But the org was stuck because, and maybe the strategy was brilliant. I don’t think it was, but if it, maybe it was, maybe I didn’t understand it. That could be, but it was too damn complex to get the organization to rally around and get it done. So it didn’t matter. It wouldn’t, even if it was brilliant, it wouldn’t work cuz it couldn’t get executed. Now to do that, to have insanely simple strategy goes back to principle one of level five leadership. It takes a hell of a lot of humility to have your strategy look like a kindergartner came up with it. Right. And that’s what the best stuff is. Cuz then it scales, but it insults the intellect of some. So then they want to go for more robust complex and, um, that’s hard. So

Brad (00:13:07) – Smart people intuitively want to make things more complex because they believe that, um, that is where the um, where the sophistication and success born and the value. Yeah. And that’s okay. But, but anyone can make it more complex. But the true art is making it simpler. And that simpler is how we bring it back to, um, yeah. The hedgehog. And why that is just so important. I was, I was on an all hands call with a company in the last couple of days and they were reviewing the strategy, um, all of the components of this strategy. And one of them, of course was the, the hedgehog. Uh, what they said, uh, at the end of that is, let’s go to the team. Cuz it was all hands and it was all online, uh, on a Zoom call. And all of the team were saying, what do you think, uh, about the whole call? Give us some feedback. And a couple of the people said, we love the fact that there are these central principles that aren’t changing, that we know what we’ve gotta do. We’re reinforcing them and we know where we are going. But over time, we’re gaining a deeper understanding into all of the nuances that support those broader principles.

Kevin (00:14:31) – Yep.

Brad (00:14:33) – So let’s ask ourselves, um, how do we assess this is what we did in the last episode and we’re doing it again. Because really we’re asking ourselves, these are the seven principles. How do we rate ourselves? So as you consider your hedgehog zero, we don’t have one at all, and 10, there’s simply no other work that we could do. Remember, it’s not only just about having it and having it documented and maybe having it on the wall, but is it informing your decisions every day, every week? Is it connected to all of the parts of the strategy? Uh, does it really clearly tell us what to say no to? So maybe rate yourself zero to 10 on the lever, how you’re leveraging the power of this principle.

Kevin (00:15:22) – Awesome. Let’s move on. We could probably do an episode on each of these. There’s so much here, but let’s move on number five. But culture, discipline, you know, in the root of Collins’ model, and his initial model in good greate is discipline. People who engage in discipline thought, who take disciplined action, and all of that spools up the flywheel. And, you know, it calls it operating with freedom within a framework of responsibilities. And the idea is, is that people in these companies, he found in his research, they didn’t have jobs, they had responsibilities. They’re responsible for making something happen. And I shared earlier that quote from Jim, you know, relentless execution of the boring basics within your hedgehog. And that’s what success is and what what creates that. And you know, what’s interesting is I look at this, it’s, you know, , one of the CEOs that we work with, he finally got that.

Brad (00:16:14) – And he, you know, he went in and looked at his business through this lens and he goes, we had the opposite of a culture of discipline. We had a culture of bureaucracy. Everything was getting slow and cumbersome. And, but they realized this, when we started to dig in, all the policies were made with unen underperforming players in mind. It was to protect everyone from the week, not to empower the the amazing. And they realized they had to do a whole rebuild on a lot of stuff and dramatically gut out the bureaucracy. And unfortunately, the A players didn’t like it, but all the Cs could, or the lower performers could sit there and grind it away. So at the end, they had to really rethink their view of people, rethink, you know, their talent, philosophy and tools, and then gut out the bureaucracy that was killing them and replaced that with better people and lighter systems.

Kevin (00:17:11) – Uh, there is so much to unpack there. We could do a, uh, a podcast episode just on one or two of the points, especially, uh, your policies protecting the weak. But one of the things that you said really lightly there, but is so powerful is Jim Collins, um, uh, and his research team identified at one point the differences in the mindset of the people in the good versus great companies. The good companies believe that the, they had a job, whereas the great companies, they believed yes, that they have a responsibility. And so that’s, that’s the quick and dirty assessment that you could do, asking your team if they’ve got a job or a responsibility, don’t obviously ask it directly. Um, but asking it indirectly

Brad (00:18:03) – Ask, what’s your role? I do this with you. So what’s your role here? And if they want to tell me their title versus I’m responsible for it. You, you get very different answers in different organizations when you ask this.

Kevin (00:18:17) – That’s the key. That’s the key, isn’t it? Yes, this is, and and if they don’t, I don’t think it’s in, I don’t think it’s out of the realms of possibility to get people to change their mindset and take that responsibility. Certainly a job to do, but that’s the essence of a culture of of discipline. That’s good. Yes.

Kevin (00:18:40) – So go ahead. Go ahead Brad. I want you to wrap up that piece and we’ll move on. Yeah,

Brad (00:18:43) – Yeah. So let’s, uh, assess your company zero to 10. Zero. We have zero on this. We have nothing. 10, we certainly couldn’t do any better. Uh, rate your firm on a score of one to 10. How well are you leveraging the power of this principle, uh, culture of discipline that is discipline. People who engage in discipline thought and who take discipline action, operating with freedom within a framework of responsibilities. Or if as Kev put it, a relentless execution of the boring basics within your hedgehog.

Kevin (00:19:19) – Awesome. Number six, technology acceleration. And in this world of technology and all that other stuff, this is a big one these days, people think technology is the answer, and then they burn five or 10 million if they’re a startup tech company. Even it’s, it, my gosh, it’s, it’s, and it’s hard. Technology is hard, but usually it’s again, the mindset and the view of it. And in technology acceleration, technology is used as an accelerator of momentum. So the momentum is there and it adds on versus the creator of it. And here’s the example I’d like to give. Um, if you can’t run a system on a basic Google sheet or spreadsheet, don’t freaking automate it. Period. Full stop. You know, one of the execs that we worked with in a company, she was brought in, she worked for Walmart, she ran, uh, a multi-billion dollar p and l for Walmart and buying and, and, and, and in the buying part of the business, they ran it on Google Sheets.

Brad (00:20:30) – Yeah.

Kevin (00:20:30) – Literally on Google Sheets is how they managed it. You can. So I believe in technology, it’s awesome, but what people think is technology is the solution to get momentum and to make it work. No, once it’s working, it can enhance it and give you extra data, extra insight, uh, save time, save errors, a lot of stuff. But it isn’t the magic answer. People think that it, that it is. And you, we see this in like implementations of Salesforce or ERPs or CRMs, you know, it’s a, it’s a management tool that can, Salesforce doesn’t drive sales on the, you know, Salesforce does much more than sales management, but it doesn’t drive sales. It gives a manager and the team ability to communicate better and gather information and have some good reminders and systems, but in itself doesn’t drive sales. It enables awesome sales people that are well trained to potentially sell more. And I don’t even know if that’s true, but that’s, we don’t need to get into that debate. So it’s Well,

Brad (00:21:30) – I I think it should be true. I think it should be true, because that’s the principle that we’re talking about, right? Yeah. It’s not technology acceleration. This is not, it’s not solving problems, it’s accelerating momentum. Okay. Yes. It’s not, it’s not the genesis or the creation of momentum. We’re gonna start with nothing and we will create momentum because we’ve implemented Salesforce and we’re not picking on Salesforce. It’s just a software program that everybody knows. Instead, we could say we have a high performing sales team who are currently using Google Sheets. If we switch

Kevin (00:22:07) – Yes.

Brad (00:22:08) – If we switch the management of that sales process and the recording of that data, which is working really, really well over to a C R M like Salesforce, will it accelerate momentum? That’s the biggest

Kevin (00:22:23) – Brilliant example. Brad, thank you for a great example. If we have a low performing sales team, Salesforce or any software application isn’t going to fix it.

Brad (00:22:34) – Yeah.

Brad (00:22:36) – If we have a high performing sales team and automate and give them technology, it’ll help them to be more. But fixing an underperforming sales team is an underperforming sales team. That’s a management issue. Wonderful. We have another podcast that we did on how software can’t replace management. We did that probably 50 episodes ago. I remember that.

Kevin (00:22:54) – That was a good one. That was a good talk. Um, um, yeah. So, uh, c e o that that i, i I would say, I know I don’t work with over here. Um, um, she was saying how, um, they haven’t, they hire, they used to hire copywriters all the time. They’ve got a very effective process. It works really, really well. Yep. Um, but we all know that artificial intelligence is, uh, is, is a big deal now. And a lot of people are switching over to that. But there’s a, what she said to me is, is we haven’t hired, uh, a copywriter in nine months because we’re migrating, uh, and getting or gaining the technology acceleration

Brad (00:23:46) – Yes.

Kevin (00:23:47) – Through those tools.

Brad (00:23:50) – Yes. Wonderful. So what to self-assess yourself on a scale of zero to 10, how well do you level the principle and live the principle that technology accelerates your momentum versus believing or operating like it would solve the problem and create momentum. So have a good system in a manual format, a spreadsheet of who knows what, and technology will enhance that amazing system versus you got a broken system, let’s get software or technology to fix it

Kevin (00:24:23) – Because then you got a broken system with new software.

Brad (00:24:27) – Yes. Because you end up I implementing the brokenness. You need to figure out the solution to the brokenness first. That’s a one. It’s the same thing happens is, is that, you know, when, when you do, like, I gotta go back to A C R M or Salesforce implementation, when the IT department does it and they get all excited about it versus having the end users involved consistently. People get in, you know, technology’s hard. Like it’s really, really hard, but let’s move on Flywheel in the doom loop, we have done episodes on this before, and the root of it is, is that the flywheel is this piece of mass that you get your MO business, you get momentum and it goes faster and faster and faster and building up more and more power based on hundreds and thousands of little inputs. And if you understand your flywheel and you can build it, it’s talked about in Good.

Brad (00:25:17) – Great. And, and you know, Jim has a, um, uh, a tool, uh, or a separate book called, uh, turning the Flywheel Little Red Book is a guide to it. And understanding what really drives your business, if you understand it, and it’s truly a tight flywheel, it becomes a focus for all your strategic decisions. And in the companies that we work with, it drives our strategy, it drives our investment decisions in the companies we work with. One I work with in India, we’ve been using it probably for, they went and did a private session with some other CEOs at Jim, probably seven or eight years ago, roughly. And they’ve been using it ever since. Yeah. And so in every quarterly or semi-annual annual meeting, they look at the flywheel and how, and they’ve nailed it. They’ve, they, this is their second iteration after they first locked it, and they red, yellow, green it on how healthy it is and, and to know, and it’s dead.

Brad (00:26:17) – It’s a dead representative of where the business is strong and weak and where they’re on and off strategy. Hmm. And they break it down. They’re all around India. They break it down by location. And so when we get the reports from the location heads, they show us how they’re regular green and then they identify how they improve certain parts and what they’re gonna do next. But it really is like a, a guide to building your, to, to continue to build that momentum in your business that technology can help to, uh, automate. It’s just amazing. I just, I’ve got another, I I got, I probably got 10 examples on Flywheel because it’s such a core driver in our clients, but Brad, you probably got something you wanna share in there too.

Kevin (00:26:56) – Yeah. So the episodes that, uh, we’ve recorded 117, um, the biggest problem with most flywheels is a two part, uh, and then episode 118. Uh, so if you’re interested to dig into Flywheel, you can go back and listen to those, uh, growth Whisperers episodes. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Flywheel. Um, look at the Amazon flywheel. It’s timeless. They built it in 2000, 2001, uh, when, when this research was being conducted by Jim Collins and it’s a part of this book. Um, and you look at it today and it’s, it’s still, it still makes sense. It’s still, it’s still perfectly legit because it’s, it’s logical and it’s how they’ve scaled to be one of the biggest organizations in the world. Yeah. Um, for, for us, uh, yeah, we, we have firms where we’ve got KPIs for each, um, for each of the, the parts of the flywheel. Let’s say you’ve got five parts to your flywheel, we ask what are the things that drive that? Yeah. We’re doing the red, yellow green as well around them. But also we’re saying how do we, how do we measure, how do we know what are the parts that need to be all green for that component to be green there? Um, so yeah, the flywheel in the doom loop is the seventh of seven principles in good to great understanding that we haven’t really touched on the doom loop. Um, but it’s the inverse of the flywheel. It’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s where people, it’s

Kevin (00:28:33) – You, you, yeah. When, go ahead Brad.

Brad (00:28:35) – Uh, where, where companies don’t achieve results, people become disengaged. Um, and then new fads or new things are brought in that aren’t disciplined, aligned around a hedgehog or something of that nature, uh, are key to success. They’re just new fads. And then funnily enough, they don’t work. And so it, the company spirals downwards

Kevin (00:28:59) – Instead of getting back to the core disciplines and the root cause and the brutal facts, they just start slapping lipstick and, and, and paint all on everything. Yeah. They try and hype stuff up, try and they don’t fix the core ugly problems. They, you know, it’s like if they had a rotten board on their house, they just try to fill it and paint over it versus getting it ripped out and replaced. Yeah. And, and, and then they wonder why it doesn’t work. It’s, um, yeah. Awesome. So before we’ve covered today, we’ve covered, um, hedge,

Brad (00:29:33) – Hedge rate yourself. Sorry, Kev, just make sure that you rate yourself zero to 10 on the flywheel. Yeah.

Kevin (00:29:38) – How clear are you on your flywheel? How regularly you focusing on it, and is it driving your strategic decisions? I mean, ideally and is it all green or, or, you know, delivering to the, what the KPIs say it should be

Brad (00:29:52) – Momentum, so,

Kevin (00:29:53) – Yep. Exactly. And you can feel the momentum building, uh, the hedgehog concept, three circles of simplicity, number one. Number two, the culture of discipline, relentless execution of the pouring basics. Technology is a wonderful accelerator of good things that are happening in your business. You don’t look at it as the problem solver. And then flywheel, finally the flywheel and doom loop. You are building momentum in your business cuz you know your flywheel and you’re fueling your flywheel.

Brad (00:30:19) – Awesome. Well, I hope that you have enjoyed, um, this two-part series rating your firm on Jim Con’s seven, good to great principles. There’s so much to unpack there, but we just thought that yeah, the, the, these principles, uh, would add value, get you to think differently, get you to rate and therefore identify the opportunities. So again, hope you’ve enjoyed the episode. If you are so interested, you can find us on YouTube by searching the growth whisperers and do, if you are watching us on YouTube or wherever you, uh, listen to podcasts, uh, some of the, the, the, the great results that we see in, in, in listener engagement happen when you actually rate us. So we’d really appreciate it, uh, if you’re enjoying the episode, to, to rate us, uh, either, uh, on YouTube or on your, where you get your podcasts. Um, if you’d like to find out more about Kevin, you can find that and information about his weekly newsletter, which is pretty awesome at lawrenceandco.com. And for myself, you can find information about us at evolutionpartners.com.au and obviously our newsletter, which comes out weekly as well. Hope you’ve enjoyed the episode and look forward to chatting to you again next week. Have a great week.