Podcast Episode 62 – Are You Planning to Sell or Keep Your Business? Or are You Stuck in the Mediocre Middle?


This week on the Growth Whisperers, we’re talking about your plan for your business.

Are you planning to keep your company or are you planning to sell it? Or, if you don’t have a plan either way, are you stuck in what we call the mediocre middle?

That is, you’re not working towards positioning your company for sale, and you’re not planning on how to build for the long term. As a result, you and your company end up suffering the consequences of inaction living in this middle ground.

And you’re not doing it consciously. You’re busy running your business and that takes a lot of time. And sometimes leaders don’t even realize that they need to make the strategic commitment to either selling or keeping their business.

We really challenge you to make a decision. Choose to sell and march in that direction. Or plan on keeping your business for 20, 30, 40 years – and make different sets of decisions. Just don’t choose to float around.

This week in part 1 of 2 we discuss what it means to be stuck in the mediocre middle and the cost that you pay for not having a plan either way.




Please note that this episode was transcribed using an AI application and may not be 100% grammatically correct – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Kevin Lawrence  00:13

Welcome to the growth whispers podcast where everything Brad Giles and Kevin Lawrence, that’s us. Everything we talk about is about building enduring great companies, something that we’re very passionate about, versus non enduring crappy companies. It’s not something we’re passionate about, although we’ve, we’ve seen a few. I’m Kevin today. And you know, Brad, my co host is here today, Brad, how you doing?

Brad Giles  00:37

I am excellent today, top of the world. In fact, winter is almost upon us and things are good here. in a good spot, and you how you

Kevin Lawrence  00:49

funny I used to have a globe sitting there, I’d swear that you’re on the bottom of the world and not the top. Not where you’re located. I think you are you might be me. Maybe you’re a little upside down today.

Brad Giles  01:00

And that’s a northern hemisphere perspective. is yes. South does not mean down necessarily. It could mean towards the south

Kevin Lawrence  01:13

you think your Do you think you’re on the bottom and we’re gonna get a series is when you’re from where you live on the globe? Do you think you’re at the bottom of the globe? How do you see or is your globe only sell globes in Australia? Are they flipped around? So

Brad Giles  01:24

Australia’s on top? Well, then not because they’re made in the Northern Hemisphere.

Kevin Lawrence  01:30

Must I must be right.

Brad Giles  01:32

But if you saw a mere curators projection of the world, would you see North America in the middle or Europe in the middle? It depends on the perspective. Right? And it’s that one, but that’s very logical. Anyway, that’s very interesting. I am glad you feel like you’re on top of the world. Brad, that is great. So let’s, what’s the what’s your word of the day?

Brad Giles  02:05

Where did the die so we like to start meetings with a word of the day and that’s why we encourage people to do it. Mine isn’t guard rails. guard rail, so working with a group of entrepreneurs last week, and we built a hedgehog. for them. It was just a small team. We work to build a hedgehog and so that they could think about a mountain at the top of the mountain is your B hag along the way is your three hag your one hag your you know, your one year, your three years and your 90 day plan. And so the hedgehog as you climb that mountain, provide you guard rails, you know, when you kind of driving through a curvy road up a mountain, they’ve got these rails on each side so that you don’t accidentally crash and die off the side of the road. Well, I’m thinking about guardrails. So the hedgehog is the guardrails as you ascend the mountain that keeps you on track, so that you don’t do things that shouldn’t be doing. And what’s yours, Kevin? Love it.

Kevin Lawrence  03:10

Well, interesting. Mine is inspired by an incident with a guardrail of sorts that I had I had a couple of days ago. But yeah, mine is patients. So I’ve mentioned a few times on the podcast, a passion for car racing and kart racing, which is a very fun and intense thing to get to do with a lot of my friends and their sons. And through an unfortunate event and a mistake that someone made, non maliciously, I had to avoid someone at a very high speed and collided with a guardrail of sorts, that made it very hard for bump when I hit it. So I spent the greater part of Friday in the hospital with great patience. And as someone who never sits still, and doesn’t like to sit still, I had to sit for four hours before I saw the first doctor. And they did all kinds of tests, then you wait for the results and then do other stuff. And then they sent me to a another hospital to get another test. So all in all, I, you know, the whole process took about 11 or so hours. Thankfully, I was all good. So I got to go home. But it was actually great because I’m not patient by nature. And I but I am thrilled to have the opportunity to wait for good care, because they did all the right things. Another doctor, I talked with the track Africa did all the right tests, they double checked all the right things to make sure there wasn’t any internal bleeding and all this other stuff. So I was very patient and I had no problem sitting and waiting because I wanted that expert help. And I got it and I am thrilled to have the opportunity to wait because I know in some parts of the world, you don’t even have the opportunity to wait for proper health care, you know, and as much as we’d like things to be faster. So yeah, my is patience. And although it’s tied into your it’s a catalyst for it was a guardrail is just what is your word of the day? So, um, yes. And patience. Patience is a wonderful attribute for a non-patient person to have. Gratitude, deep gratitude. I’m really appreciative. The medical people that helped me Oh my gosh. Oh, wait any time that I need to forget hope.

Brad Giles  05:25

So you had patients hanging out with other good patient patients? Waiting for the doctor?

Kevin Lawrence  05:32

Yeah, yeah. And I gotta say, these doctors were awesome. They were so wonderful. They put me at ease. I mean, I think I’m not good with needles. And I had like four or five needles jabbed in me. And they were the they were so nice and gentle about anyways, good, fun. thrilled to have great health. So today, what are we talking about? Brad, we have, we’ve got a split episode. Today, we got two separate ones that we’re doing. And you know, today is part one, and next week will be part two. So So tell us what’s,

Brad Giles  06:00

what’s the theme here to this super excited, super excited every single episode, we talk about building enduring great companies. But you know, what, why? Why are we talking about enduring great companies? Well, today, we’re going to dig into that. And specifically, what we’re asking is, are you planning to sell or planning to keep your business. And if you don’t know, if you’re planning to sell or planning to keep, maybe you’re stuck in what we call the mediocre middle. So this is part one of two.

Kevin Lawrence  06:36

Yeah, and the mediocre middle is a place that we’re going to give you some things to think about and encourage you to not be because the mediocre middle is also the painful middle, or the excruciating middle, the maddening middle, so we’re gonna, we’re gonna dig into that today. That’s super important. Because, as you know, we bradon you know, you and I do a lot of discussion about working with enduring great companies and a majority of the companies we work with, you know, they’re building their businesses to keep them for a long time. And to make them into amazing machines, and then some, you’ll build them and they want to sell them. But they’re both doing it with a distinct purpose, either to sell it for a great return in a few years, no handful of years, 357 years, two years, or, yeah, keep it for 357 decades. And often when we start working with companies, sometimes they haven’t made up their mind yet, or they think they want to sell because they can’t stand it. Or they think they want to keep it because they don’t know what else to do. And so it’s just a matter of sorting things out. So that’s, that’s what we’re digging out to today. What camp Are you in? And let’s just make sure you do it with a purpose. And I remember something my mom said to me many times as a kid and she say walk with a purpose. Right? Like if you’re going somewhere go, you know, and versus just kind of wandering or lollygagging around, and I think we want to do the same thing, you know, like

Brad Giles  08:05

lollygagging never happens.

Kevin Lawrence  08:09

That would be something that we talked about on the top part of the world. It’s It’s just about you’re wandering aimlessly floating around. Okay. Yeah. lollygagging that’s a very I don’t even I don’t I gotta look up where that comes from. Check that in a minute. lollygagging so. So we got a couple of key things to talk about. But the first is that you know, it’s it’s tied into lollygagging, which again, I’m going to have to look that up. But it’s, you know, the no plan. Like I love doing the no plan. Sometimes on a Sunday afternoon, I got free time. You know, it’s beautiful. If you’ve got this adventure vacation, and you can just wander around and just see where it takes you. It’s awesome thing to do. It’s just not a great thing to do in business, going with the flow and wandering with wherever the winds kind of take you usually doesn’t go so well. And if you don’t have a real purpose and aren’t really driven towards, you know, something, in this case, the something we’re talking about is building it to keep it or building it to sell it. Yeah, it’s it basically it’s an excuse to have an undisciplined way to run your business.

Brad Giles  09:25

Yeah. Many people might say, well, we don’t even we don’t think about selling, but then that’s it. There’s, we’re not thinking about selling but then it’s just a void of emptiness beyond that. And then they say, Well, look, if someone came up with a huge check, we’d probably sell like, you know, if they wanted to give us a ridiculous amount of money we probably sell. But that’s the kind of point of this episode is that having that is not necessarily good for you because that is what we call the mediocre middle So yeah, if you’re going to, to be in the mediocre middle, there are some negative consequences that come with that. And so what we’re doing is we’re saying this is a spectrum between we’re planning to sell, or we’re planning to keep, if you’re not one of the, if you’re not at one of the ends of that spectrum, you are at risk of being in this mediocre middle that can produce mediocre results potentially, and can put you at a risk of not being able to endure. You know, it’s a risk that you don’t even know that is there.

Kevin Lawrence  10:40

Yeah, and you could be at risk of lollygagging which I looked up for us, Brad, thank you for that. lollygagging is to fool around and waste time. It’s similar to the word Donal which is to spend time idly or move lackadaisically or to spend fruitlessly or lackadaisically No, no. So basically, you could be dawdling. You could be lollygagging. Or you could be having the time of your life. We’re not saying you’re doing something wrong, but we’re just generally if you’re if you’re kind of stuck in a mediocre middle, it could hurt me like that, where the lollygagging is, this is gonna be your new favorite word, Brian.

Brad Giles  11:21

Yeah, welcome to the grammar whispers everything we talking about is building better grammar? Yes. No, it’s not No, no, no, no, no. So let’s go to houses, right. Let’s go houses. So he, some people buy a house to flip, they buy it, they improve it, and then they sell it a short period, you know, months or a couple of years later. Other people, they build a home, they buy a place to become a home. And they might even want to keep it for generations. So an extreme example of that might be a, you know, the Kennedy mansion, or the Kennedy property on Cape Cod. Now, maybe you haven’t been there, maybe haven’t seen any photos of it. But the Kennedy dynasty, the Kennedy family have a property on Cape Cod, that has been there for generations, and they plan to keep it for decades to come. So they treat it differently compared to the person who is building to flip or building to sell buying to flip. And they also treat it differently to the person who’s just kind of coasting along and doesn’t even think about Should I keep this house for a long period of time.

Kevin Lawrence  12:39

Yeah, and that’s something that we can fall into the trap of, and again, people are doing this because they they are, you know, consciously deciding to be there. And that’s what we want people to get, you know, you can have a place that is a mediocre place to live or a place that you tolerate. Or you can have this place that you’re thinking about for generations and just the future, which some people do, or you can flip it, that’s good, too. Don’t just get stuck in the middle of, well, it works. It suffices, it’s okay. Right? You want to have it that it’s meant to be amazing for the long term. Or it’s great to flip for the short term. And don’t get stuck in the middle. Now, we’re not saying if you’ve got a home that you live in, that’s fine. And it’s all you need for right now, we’re not saying that we’re using the metaphor, because maybe that’s the way you want to live. But we’re talking the extreme of a business, which is a commercial enterprise. It’s not the place where you raise a family. And some people get stuck and just having a business that becomes lacklustre. Not fun. And that’s what we’re looking at on this. Is that really? Yeah, deciding and being conscious of it, because you make very, very different decisions now. And it’s interesting, early on in our discussions, lots of companies will have strategic plans of how they’re going to make the business better. Right. They’ll have plans and they’ll have goals, and that’s great. But what’s the shareholder plan? Like what’s the plan for the shareholders? You know, from that perspective, the team can be rallying towards, you know, making a stronger company. But from a shareholder perspective, is this a, an asset that we’re going to build and make great for 10 2030 4050 years in the future? Or are we flipping this. And in some sometimes I’ve seen companies where the CEO and executive have a very good plan for the business, but the shareholders don’t and the way the shareholders look at it could directly or could have a notable impact on strategy. Because if they’re thinking a 30 year time horizon, that’s very very different in terms of how they invest, how they look at their team, and how they look at all kinds of other things, is very different if they’re going to flip it in three years, no different than the house example, you know, the Kennedy Cape Cod home, that that compound that they have, you know, they would think different about maintenance or what they build, versus if they were gonna flip it in three years.

Brad Giles  15:21

Yeah, yeah. I love that a strategic plan and a shareholder plan. So the strategic plan is how we’re going to basically build the business and grow the business, but then having a different page, a different document where we’re thinking, Okay, so how are they? How are we going to make it work for the shareholders? Now, that may be an 80% overlap with the first document, but it’s a different lens through which to consider this a different way to think so how, what are the shareholders looking for? And it could be you it could not be you, you could be a part of that. But knowing that the shareholders are the shareholders, you know, maybe they’re looking for dividends over the long term, maybe they’re looking for some slight capital growth. But whatever it is making the decision around that and saying, Yeah, we need to deliver these things over a period of time makes a huge difference. Yeah. And it even

Kevin Lawrence  16:20

affects the risks that you’ll be willing to take, Heck, even think about bringing children into a business. If you’re selling it in three years, you don’t even consider it. Yeah, if you’re keeping it for 300 or 30 years, you’re probably going to teach your kids more about the business, you might have a plan of how you involve or don’t it all. As soon as you zoom out to a longer term time horizon, you change your thinking and change the conversation. Versus same as when you zoom in to a shorter term exit, you change the thinking and the conversations.

Brad Giles  16:59

And that’s really interesting, because in my conversation with a lot of entrepreneurs, what they think is they feel they can’t zoom out, because the existential threats are too big. Okay, so they think that they’re going to if they try to think in the long term, that some they will get taken out, and they won’t be able to endure. Right. But I think it’s a it’s a illogical concept. Like, it’s, it doesn’t make sense to say that, because it is, they if they have an enduring mindset, they will get over that they will survive and endure, and adapt and pivot and change within the confines of their hedgehog to get to that enduring place, they will correct. Because they have the enduring mindset.

Kevin Lawrence  17:53

Right. And so it’s definitely the entrepreneur thinks they can’t zoom out because it’s dangerous. Yeah, but the underlying great person knows they need to zoom out, and they need to zoom in, they know they need to do both. Because if you just zoom in, you could get lost in the forest for the trees that you could, you could lose your way and lose your perspective, if you only zoom out. That’s dangerous, too. So it’s an ad, but it was interesting, you know, our, our icon that we use in our firm Lawrence and CO is the end sign, you know, when I say primarily, yeah, the ampersand, it’s, it’s like, basically, it’s about not compromising. It’s about thriving at work, and having a great life. And I caught up with a friend of a friend recently, that’s interestingly, in in, she’s been thinking about the same thing and some of her stuff about the power of the end, you know, it’s this not having to choose, and it’s about how the end is critical that this can happen. And that can happen, where a lot of people think they have to choose, in some cases between two things, and sometimes you do, but some of the best decisions are fighting the end. Yeah, right, is you have to zoom out and zoom in. Now, that kind of goes against one of the things that we’re saying here. But you cannot really thinkable building to sell a company in the short term, it’s very hard to and then do an end for the long term. And yeah, you know, and truthfully, you can have, if you’re really going to do a good job of selling a company in the next three or so years, you probably are gonna have 80% plus on the long term 90% on that loss rate on the short term, and a little bit about the long term because you got to allow the thing to succeed. And the same thing, if you’re, if you’re building it to endurance to keep it you can’t have everything only focused on the long term time horizon. Because there is a business to run today. The point of it is that if We go look at some people feel this balance between zooming in to details and short term and then zooming out to longer term strategic, you need to do both. And it’s just a matter of how much you wait on each. And if you’re going to build an enduring, great company, you’re going to wait more to later on, right to lot longer in the time horizon a little longer time horizon, where some people won’t put almost anything on

Brad Giles  20:26

  1. And that’s, and that’s, you know, one of the things that we’re saying, you’ve got to, you’ve got to pick in by not picking you are in the mediocre middle. And that’s really the whole point of today’s episode is so are you building to sell? Or are you building to keep? Do you have a plan to sell the business? Or do you have a plan to keep the business because the absence of one of those can create a real, you know, a real risk that you actually won’t endure, you won’t be able to zoom out to that 1000 100,000 excuse me feet perspective and make those long term considerations and decisions on where you’re going to head?

Kevin Lawrence  21:15

So you’re not even because you’re not even thinking about it. And it’s not Yeah, because it’s just not something. And again, if you don’t put energy into it, it doesn’t usually move along, or kind of happen the way you want. And that’s it. So it’s really we’re trying to say today is, Hey, are you consciously building to sell in the shorter to medium term? Were you consciously building to build it for the long term and build an enduring great company for decades? But don’t allow yourself to float in between or not even think about it, pick one, and drive hard towards it?

Brad Giles  21:47

So how do you know that you’re in the mediocre middle a listener might say, Well, we’ve got to be hag? I don’t think because we’ve got to be hag, I don’t think that we’re in the mediocre middle. big, hairy, audacious, big, hairy, audacious goal is the be hag acronym. So how would we react today? No,

Kevin Lawrence  22:09

you’re in a mediocre middle? Well, your businesses probably mediocre in lots of different ways, really, that’s literally like, so you know, whether you look at, you know, the kind of people on the team, like, if you’re gonna sell a company, quickly, you need amazing people producing Well, yeah, or you’re gonna blow it out for a cheap price in a fire sale. But if you’re gonna get all the money for it, if you’re building an enduring, great company, you need to have darn good people making the decisions and driving it ahead. So people could probably be mediocre. Your performance could be mediocre, right, your margins, you know, your margins, and, and your profitability, likely could be mediocre. And even thinking about the balance sheet. Like, truthfully, if you’re going to sell your business, you might be fully levering up your balance sheet to maximize growth, right, maximizing growth, which would maximize, depending on the visible maximize sale price. But if you’re building an enduring, great company, you’re probably going to have a notably less leveraged balance sheet. Yeah. Because you want backup and, and buffers for when the economy gets weird. Yeah. And or so you can capitalize an opportunity. So, you know, your balance sheet would probably be quite dramatically different. But in the mediocre middle, you know, it’s probably either not great. Or it could be or it’s not fully leveraged, because you’re not pushing forward aggressively. So what else do you think would tell people go ahead? Well, because

Brad Giles  23:55

you’re thinking about this shorter term, you’re thinking, oh, I’ve got this other distraction that I want to, you know, take money out for, or I want to, I want to, I’m not worried about weakening the balance sheet of the business. Another way could be culture, maybe your coaching is, is not as strong as it is because you just kind of, you know, operating you’re not really building for enduring greatness there. Isn’t that vision there? Maybe your vision? Yeah, maybe you do have a bag, but maybe people aren’t necessarily as connected to it, or it doesn’t impact them in a meaningful way. So yeah,

Kevin Lawrence  24:38

I mean, it’s like in the house metaphor. Like, if you’re just, it’s just a place to sleep. Yeah. You know, you’re not gonna clean it up to flip it and maximize the profit. Or you’re not going to make it cozy and feel like a home for yourself. And I know what we see a lot of people that haven’t consciously made the choice sufficient to build it. During great company, they don’t actually love the business. Like they don’t really enjoy it. You know, it’s interesting, I was chatting on the weekend with some friends, and we’re talking about different businesses and the pros and cons. And I made reference to the fact that, you know, the consulting business, if you want to, you know, get rich and sell your business for $100 million. consulting is not the place to go. coaching and consulting, that is not likely to happen at all, although many of our clients are, do and are able to do that. And, and a friend of another friend said, Hey, as we’re talking to our kids, and about me on business, and investing and stuff on our, and I said in a bit like consulting, need to take your extra profits invested. And that’s how you kind of, you know, you build wealth for the long term. And another friend said, Hey, Kevin, just just just just don’t forget, though, you love what you do. Right? And, and, and not everyone that builds some of these amazing businesses does love what they do, because I mean, I love what I do, because I’ve picked a business to endure. I want to keep doing this when I’m 80. Yeah, and I have to stop myself from doing it too much. Because I love it. I know, Brian, it’s the same for you. Yeah. And so I but that’s, that’s, that’s it’s almost like, it’s, it’s I don’t have to endure my business. I love it. And it gives me endurance, because it gives me so much joy back, which is, which is a piece of it nuts if you’re on that particular road. And so you got to find a way that your business is not something you need to endure, and you make some good,

Brad Giles  26:36

so maybe your business drains, you maybe is a sign that you’re in the mediocre middle that you’re not that you don’t have a plan to endure. Is that you feeling drained? Because if I said to you, you need to still be in this business in 20 years time. What are the things that you need to do now? Yeah, to be confident that you will want to, and you will enjoy it in 20 years time? What do you need to do? You know, one of the first things I might say is, well, I’m going to fire those two people.

Kevin Lawrence  27:11

Well, then let’s get after it. It’s good. All right. But that’s a great question, Brad, how would you feel? If I told you you would be doing this business for the next 20 years? Yeah. At the pace you’re doing it today? Yeah. Because if your answer is awesome, then your business is set up in a way where it works for you. And if it’s not look around at the points that aren’t awesome, fix those damn things.

Brad Giles  27:43

Because that is an indicator, again, that you’re in the mediocre middle. And that that is that inspiration, it’s not there. And you can plan your way through and beyond that, it’s important to really understand that. And that present, when you’re not passionate around that, that present risk, that that, you know, it presents a risk that you won’t endure, by not putting in these longer term plans, not by not being able to be certain that you’re going to endure, it inadvertently creates the risk that you want to do.

Kevin Lawrence  28:24

Yes. Because you’re not building it and setting it up so that you can endure and want to enter it versus getting burdened by it.

Brad Giles  28:33


Kevin Lawrence  28:34

that is awesome. So if you’re really, you know, what we’re talking about here is, is that, you know, in that mediocre middle, there’s a bunch of stuff that won’t work for you. Because you’re basically accepting a lower standard of whatever, whatever it is, that that would be different. If you chose to flip it quickly. or, or, or you were going to, you know, hinder it for the long term. I just had this flash in my mind. Somebody know, who will remain nameless, lived in this house for quite a while. And it was, it was a place to sleep, let’s call it like, you know, a bunch of there were some how much a half finished projects, and you know, and things were just sort of, you know, everything was okay. Well, they decided to sell the damn thing. Man, did they whip that place into shape? Yeah, they got all of their projects finished. They got everything cleaned up, the gutter organized, The place looks so different. It wasn’t funny. And I didn’t say anything, which is unusual for me. But I laughed to myself, it’s like, okay, so you live in a place that to your in your mind was mediocre for all these years. You decide to sell it and you clean it up so the next person can enjoy it. And you don’t get the benefit of that. And you know, and maybe that wasn’t important to them, I don’t know. But it’s just funny how people make their places awesome when they We’re going to get rid of it. Yeah. And it’s, it’s it makes, you know, why wouldn’t you make it awesome and keep it or make it awesome and enjoy it. And again, different values? Maybe that didn’t matter to them? I don’t know, maybe it was only an economical motive economic motivation. It’s fascinating.

Brad Giles  30:15

It is. Awesome. So a good chat today, we spoke about the question are you building to sell? Are you building keep a business? Or are you in the mediocre middle? So this is part one of two. And in the next episode, we’re going to specifically talk about how, how do you build this? What do you need to do? And how do you consider how to build an enduring business in this sense, so that you don’t end up so that you don’t stay in the mediocre middle.

Kevin Lawrence  30:53

So the key points today were the no plan is great for vacations or Sunday afternoons were not for business. And really, freedom from plans is not freedom, you end up being at the whim of whatever happens. And so you need to have a strategic plan for your business, and a shareholder plan for what you’re gonna do for the long term with this amazing asset or business. And then we talk about houses, we say, well, it really there’s houses you flip, there’s houses that you live in, or just a place to sleep, let’s call it or live in for a short time. And then there are homes for generations like that Kennedy, Cape Cod home. And we’re encouraging you to consider, either you’re going to flip this darn thing. Or it’s gonna be a home for generations, but don’t get stuck in that middle. Because in that middle, it feels mediocre. It often drains you. And as I wrote down, the thing that actually came into my mouth as we’re talking, you end up needing to endure your business means tolerated or put up with it, versus your business giving you endurance in the form of joy and fulfillment. So is that something that you feel you need to under? Or does it give you endurance, and that’s really a great, a great summary of this. And what we want for you is to not risk building a great company and having the endurance to do it and missing out on the opportunity in front of you. And selling it just because you can’t stand it. Again, if you sell it strategically awesome. But if you’re just selling it because you can’t stand it. That’s a whole other thing.

Brad Giles  32:22

Awesome. Well, we hope that you enjoyed this part one of two episodes of the growth whispers where we always talk about building enduring great companies. I’m Brad Giles, and you can find me at evolution partners.com.au and Kevin, the North northern hemisphere in that half

Kevin Lawrence  32:41

of the world we would like to call it yes has

Brad Giles  32:44

been chatting throughout this episode. You can find him at Lawrenceandco.com. We hope you enjoyed our episode and we hope you can join us next week for part two. In the meantime, have a great week.