Podcast Episode 69 – Topgrading Virtual Bench


This week on The Growth Whisperers, we talk about the Topgrading virtual bench, a recruiting tactic for executives who need a better way to find additional leaders or key team members.

The Topgrading virtual bench is important because it builds a list of vetted, pre-qualified candidates for a job opening that you can draw upon when you need to.

In the episode, we explain why it’s important and provide a simple role-play on how you can cold call potential candidates to put them onto your virtual bench.




Please note that this episode was transcribed using an AI application and may not be 100% grammatically correct – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Brad Giles  00:13

Welcome to the growth Whisperer is where everything we talk about is building enduring great companies, companies that will last companies that will have a meaningful impact companies that you care about. That’s what we’re about. As always, today, I’m joined by with my co host, Kevin Lawrence. Good, Kevin, how are you doing today?

Kevin Lawrence  00:35

I am doing awesome Brad, I’m excited to be here. I just love doing these shows, because it gives a good chance to think about some of the things that we work on all the time and learn as we’re doing the work. And then we get to kind of, you know, mash our brains together and come up with even better ideas. So yeah, I enjoy it. And I’m, you know, as we’re at Episode 69, we’re, you know, past two thirds of the way to 100. And for something that started off as a Hey, let’s try this for a few weeks and see what happens. It’s been pretty cool.

Brad Giles  01:06

Yeah, I’m enjoying it, too. It’s good. It’s good fun. I remember, in the first few episodes, we were saying, Yeah, we’ll give it a few. And we’ll see how it goes. But no, no, it is going very, very good. Well, as always, today, we like to start with a word or phrase, as we advocate people do in their meetings just to break the ice for one of a better term. So Kevin, tell me, what is your word or phrase for the day? Mine is groggy. I had my second shot of the vaccination the day that we’re recording the show, and it’s starting to kick in a little bit. You know, it’s funny, last time I got my first shot. My arm was a bit sore. That hasn’t happened yet, although I’m sure it will. But yeah, I just feel a little bit groggy, a little tired. And, but I feel awesome. Knowing that I’m done. And soon, I’ll be able to travel. And I’ll be able to potentially come to your country or other great countries that I’m used to going to. So I would say I’m, I’m groggy and grateful is it would be the you know, has the tag a second word on there. How about yourself run? Mine? Is it human nature? Human nature? Okay, two words. I don’t think I’ve ever said one word, but that’s okay. I don’t think you’ve ever said one word you’re generally have a couple. Yes, yeah. So human nature. And the reason is, we are enjoying the dance in Australia, we’ve had quite a few lock downs. And a lot of people are pointing fingers at each other. about why and you know, it’s getting a bit tiresome, but I guess I’m just thinking, do you know what it this is just human nature. When we look at what happened in India, where there was a big surge, a second wave that was just horrible and terrible. I think that a lot of these things are caused just by human nature, people get tired of things, they get complacent. They want to go back to normal, they don’t want to have to do the things that they need to do to play safe. And that’s kind of what happened, you know, in the 1918. Flu as well. So I’m a bit off track here. But my point being, I think it’s human nature and knowing that human nature is a part of the negative consequences, sometimes of things that happen that can actually be applied to business as well. Sometimes people do things, it’s just human nature. And you just got to deal with it and move on, or try to actively be conscious of it.

Kevin Lawrence  03:45

Yes, it seems like it’s human nature, to have a lack of discipline.

Brad Giles  03:51


Kevin Lawrence  03:53

I watched on on July 1, in Canada, Canada Day, are in our province for sure. They announced you no longer had to wear masks. And like whoosh, they fell off everyone’s face that was up in a smaller town. But if they fell off everyone’s face, like almost immediately, like people like let’s move on. People want to have parties. People want to do stuff. And I hope that because of the level of vaccinations that we have, that it’ll stick and, you know, we’re past this thing. Yes. Because human nature is like, we just want to socialize. You know, I had friends come over tonight. My parents are with me. moving house, parents are here we’re doing some packing and some friends came by to drop off a car and, and they’re there. They’re giving my parents a hug because they’ve known my parents for years. But that’s just human nature. We want to hug people and we want to be close to people and all this wear a mask and stay apart. You know, it kind of grinds on people or did it grind on people and hopefully, that’s mostly behind us. Awesome. Well, let’s, let’s dig into the show today. So what are we talking about? We’re not you know, we’re talking literally human nature comes into play. Being groggy could be an excuse for not doing what we’re going to talk about today. And hopefully by the end, people are grateful for what you’ve done the show. Let’s hope but so so what’s the name of the game today, Brad?

Brad Giles  05:14

Yeah, the name of the game is what is a top grading virtual bench and why you need one. So many people talk about the virtual bench. The virtual bench is a concept that comes from top grading by bread smart, and hiring is a problem. Back in the 1920s, around the Great Depression, there wasn’t really a problem with hiring because it was unskilled labor generally, for a lot of roles. And there was no shortage of people to fill those unskilled roles. So it wasn’t really that complex. As we’ve moved into a knowledge economy, the war for talent has become more and more of a problem. Or opportunity, depending on how you look at it. And what that now means is that there’s no substitute for having the best people, we call those people, a player’s a player is defined as someone who’s in the top 10% of available candidates at the pay rate that you provide. So this isn’t paying a lot more, this is the pay rate that you provide. So it’s a top 10%. And so they are that is a top grading concept that you and I both work with. But the virtual bench is another concept in that area, to ensure that you can actually fill vacant roles. It’s a tactic, because many people just put an advertisement on an online job board, and then get really surprised when they don’t get amazing candidates turn up,

Kevin Lawrence  07:02

right, and they’ve got this position that they need to fill, and they get kind of desperate. So imagine, imagine, you know, a basketball game, they will have the National Basketball League NBA, which is mostly based in the US they play odd. Sometimes they played some other place, but most of us league. And imagine you’re out there in a very important game,

Brad Giles  07:27

and one of your key players gets hurt. Well, if you don’t have any other players, you now have a problem, you’re going to panic, you’ll pull someone out of the stands if you have to, ah, but the sports teams are smart, they have this thing called a bench on the side of the court, and they’ve got other players warmed up ready to go at all times. So one so they can trade off. So people don’t run out of energy, too, they can replace an injured player instantaneously. Now, that bench getting those second line players in some cases, sometimes they rotating, but they put a lot of work into getting that bench that’s right there to have additional players ready to go. That’s how they operate in sports, they have to now bless them, they have other virtual benches of the feeder teams, you know that are playing in different lower level leagues that feed into that higher level NBA league. And it’s like that way in most sports.


But we don’t do that in business. Generally, we have our players that are on the court playing. And we don’t generally have backups. So if something happens, we generally end up being desperate, which makes us more likely to pull somebody out of the stands and have them come play who’s not the most qualified, not even a great fit. But man, we just need someone on the court,

Brad Giles  08:45

anybody and any anyone, please. So so. And we make a lot of budget, nevermind that we make a bad choice. But we are also in a pinch. And sometimes for the right people, it takes 369 months to recruit these high level capable people. So the idea of the virtual batch is that you have your own group of people who are warmed up, ready to join, you are ready for a more serious conversation to join you. So that if there is an opportunity, you’re not starting from zero, you know, it’s like they’re already warmed up to six or seven or eight verses starting at zero and having none and you’re much more likely to have great candidates because yeah, that’s the whole idea is you’ve got people warmed up who you already know are amazing. People are what we would call a players. So you’re not desperate and crossing your fingers and hoping because that’s the real problem, isn’t it? that many people they only think about it when a person resigns. There’s no succession plan. There’s no, not a week. How are we going to maintain a high quality team. It’s just a case of, Oh well, someone’s resigned. Let’s Go to HR and let’s put an advert on the job board on the online job board to try to find someone and then we’ll see what comes in. And then they say, well, the market isn’t that good at the moment? Of course not. But


imagine it’s actually insane. Brad, imagine if our salespeople did that, you know, when they lost a customer, they started to prospect and look for a new one. We would never grow. No, but our salespeople get it, and our sales teams get it. But we as executives and leaders don’t normally, and our salespeople know, they have to put time into prospecting and qualifying and wooing and lunching and coughing, and all of these things, to build relationships. And sometimes it takes years. And the truth is, as leaders and executives, we need to do the same. And we are often not, I’ve got some CEOs I work with that are amazing. They never stop, literally never stop.

Brad Giles  10:57

But it’s a disciplined effort that leaders need to have. So anyway, we’re very passionate about this. We’ve got some great examples we’ll get into but the first point I want to get into is that really the highest performing people rarely or almost never apply for jobs.


Because the amazing a players are very well taken care of. Yeah, the companies know that they’re great. They take very good care of them. And when they do decide that, enough of this, something has pissed them off, and they’ve had enough. Generally, they have a chat with a couple of people. And they instantly get an interview and get hired. They don’t even make it to the marketplace. Yeah, they don’t make it because they talk to some relationships, who already know them, love them, and probably have been courting them along the way. And then the way they go, and then most are not headhunted. That’s what another word for they can be headhunted. And in those in those vulnerable moments. Exactly. But they’re not. They’re rarely ever getting to the point when they’re applying. Yeah, yeah. Because they don’t have to, because they’re being pulled out all the freakin time.

Brad Giles  12:06

And then we wonder if a player’s rarely apply for jobs. We wonder why we don’t get a player’s through the online job board system. It’s it’s logical, like people don’t go there, they’re not going to say, I’m going to go and try to find a job because they’ve already got multiple inquiries inbound on a regular basis. Correct. I would make one distinction, though, there is a level of role where that is true and where it’s not true. So what’s interesting that we found in our work is that, you know, if we’re looking at sort of a player, administrative people, sometimes even like executive assistants and administrative people, they’re often not as connected as say, your director of sales, your director of operations, your director of social responsibility and things like that. So we I would say sometimes at a manager level or a director level and up for sure everything we’re talking about is true. And there are some positions closer to the front line. That that it’s not as true, there is some closer to the frontline where they might apply for jobs, but it’s it’s almost like a different part of the market. Yeah. So we’re talking about managers, directors, executives, all that kind of stuff. You know, that’s that’s kind of what we’re talking about today. Yeah, yeah. And so the second point, it’s like sports and sales. So we gave the example of the NBL. Before, but But what we’re, what we’re saying is, you’ve got to have some kind of funnel, you’ve got to have some kind of thinking beyond the reaction. So you need to be proactive in this area to Yes, have an example. I’ll give you an example. I worked with a customer in the homebuilding space. They were one of the large home builders in our area, and I walked into the one of the senior managers office and he proudly pulled out his drawer on his desk. And he showed me, he said, I’ve got every single sales person’s business card in our industry. And I’ve got notes about them. So if I need to fill a role, I know exactly the three or four people that I’m going to go and have a chat with now, maybe it’s not the right time for them, but maybe it is the right time for them. So he said, I never advertised for jobs because in my role as a leader, we spoke about this a few weeks ago, the ambassador role. Yes, my job as a leader. I’m out there and I’m always understanding and building my virtual bench. I know exactly who is where and who. actually even unhappy. And for the ones that are crappy, you know, it puts simply, he just doesn’t communicate with them anymore. But he is very good at identifying who are the better ones, and then maintaining a dialogue with them. Another one of my clients had a list of similarly, every top sales person in their industry in Western Canada, and he would do coffee with them all the time. And I remember, there’s one guy we recruited, who had a non compete, so we had to work some legal things to make it all legit. And give this guy a guarantee for a couple of years. I think the one guy alone was magic, I love the guy still keep in contact with them. Over a 10 year period, probably put five to $10 million dollars of profit into the company, one freaking guy that he pursued for more than two years, coffees, chats, all of these other things, and it was a beautiful decade, an amazing decade. So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a proactive activity that’s really, really required. And a lot of people just don’t do it. And then when it kind of takes us to the next ones, like whose responsibility is that people think hrs role is to hire people. Well, if your HR people are in charge of all of this, you’re generally going to be behind the eight ball, because they’re wonderful support. We love the HR teams. But it’s the executives with their networks and their relationships, which we’ll talk about next. And the managers and the directors who can really be out there because they know lots of people. And spending time doing this, unfortunately, people get too stuck doing their tactical day job. And don’t spend enough time doing this stuff. But it’s not hrs responsibility to do the recruiting, their support, they’re here to make sure that we do it well, that we filter well that we onboard, well, all of those other things. But it’s in a response.

Kevin Lawrence  17:04

If I had it my way, and some companies we do do this, every executive would have a KPI that related to their recruiting activities. Because they’re responsible for building the teams now and the best ones do the best ones absolutely are proactive in recruiting and do this. And and and some of the ones who are great don’t and it’s just because they don’t think of it. It’s not because they’re bad. It’s, it’s hard. It’s hard to think about and but when people do, it’s amazing. Amazing what happens, oh, hrs job is to support it. But not do it. Because it What can HR do? While they can top their network a little bit. They won’t have the same network as a lot of executives and directors. And then two, they can hire, they can hire recruiters. That’s about it. Yeah. Where we have a lot of other things that we can do, because we’re doing other activities and have other relationships we can leverage. Yeah, the I think that the what matters with the virtual bench is that it’s working on the business not working in the business to pick up on your point. So if we do Stephen Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, what we’re saying is that the virtual bench is it’s important and not urgent. Okay. It’s important and not urgent. And that means that people so often get sucked into the important and urgent and then when, when they’re doing that, okay, it means they’re not dedicating that time. So many times I’ve seen executives put an item on the action item list that they want to build a virtual badge. And they know it’s a great concept and they know what works, but they never actually because it always sucked back into you use the word tactical, I’ll use the word working in the business versus on the Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And, and that’s where it falls over as a concept. So you’ve got to dedicate the priority to it, you’ve got to know that this is important. There was a team that I worked with, we’re going through a bit of a skills shortage in many places around the world. Certainly we are here. And so we actually run a session with the leadership team on the virtual bench. And we said every single person had to come with five people who could who were most likely in a player as homework, and we needed to flesh them out so that we had basically I think it was like eight people insane. So 40 potential people to come and work in the business. Now some of them weren’t suitable and so forth. But the it was really the first time that that leadership team had spent time thinking about a virtual bench for many of them, and we got some cracking names. We got some real Really good names on that bench that we can now work with and begin to build relationships with. So yeah, it really is working on the business, not in the business.


Yeah, it’s investing

Brad Giles  20:11

in your future. It’s investing energy today that pays dividends in the future, because one amazing person added to the team makes a massive difference. So we, we talked about this a lot, Brad, one of my favorite times when we brought this to life. Because some people are really good at this naturally. Or we’re down in Orlando, Florida, doing a quarterly meeting for one of my clients, one of my American clients. And I was talking to the CEO, when I’m going look, we’re growing like crazy. We need some other key people at this table. And at the director slash leader table, and it was his idea. His name is actually Angela Mora, CEO of medx. staffing down in the US, he’s like,

Kevin Lawrence  20:52

okay, we’re gonna do it right now. So he goes, guys, stop, open your laptops, go to LinkedIn. we’re recruiting, other recruiting company, so they know how to do it. Yeah, it was a way to go in your network, who do you know, who do you know, that’s

Brad Giles  21:07

an A player that you would love to add to our team in the next three to five years? And who do you know, that knows, a player’s like, every time we need an executive, Andrew would come up with somebody, he would always be digging out and doing some awesome recruiting. Now, the team needs to filter because you know, sometimes, you know, he would, he would get them to the table, but we need to make sure that they were good. And because the ones he brought sometimes are good, sometimes more, but that’s okay. He brought them on our job was to filter them. So we had everyone make their list of the key people. And we got a couple of great hires that have just that 30 minutes that we spent on LinkedIn, because you were going into your current network of people, you know, and saying, hey, let’s pull them over. Yeah, they were also digging back. And we said, Look, look back with people you haven’t talked to for 10 years go into your dormant network, which is sometimes more powerful, because those are people who don’t run in the same circle. They run in different circles, so their circle of friends or people you don’t even know. Yeah, so we worked our active network, looked at our dormant network, and just made a list of people that people continue to follow up with, again, and it produced some great results. But the point of it is, everyone has LinkedIn, as an example, everyone has these contexts, but not everyone was doing anything about it. So it was a simple it was 30 minutes in a meeting, and it worked beautifully. Yeah, yeah, it can be as that’s what I did, that can be as simple as that it makes it, it makes a difference, because that is a proactive activity, rather than reactive, which is let’s put an advert out there and see what comes in. And then subsequently, as I said earlier, complain about the market. Okay, so let’s move on. Where do we look, we’ve said LinkedIn was there was a very good example. So where

Kevin Lawrence  23:00

else LinkedIn, in your network of people, you know, went to college with Yes, yeah. All that stuff. The people that you know, and your dorm it never we haven’t talked? For sure over that.

Brad Giles  23:10

Yeah. So So Where else? A couple of other examples where you could look to build your virtual bench might be suppliers. So you could bring up a supplier and say, we’re hiring at the moment, who is the best possible candidate that you think might possibly work for us? Who’s the best person in our industry that you know, of who just consistently creates results? And a supplier? You know, they might say, Oh, I don’t know. But equally, it’s worth the question. Because they might come up with two or three candidates. That could be fantastic.

Kevin Lawrence  23:47

Yeah, another one’s trade shows, which hopefully will be happening, again, is the practice, you get to see people in action, and you get to network and schmooze and build relationships. Like, you know, one of my clients trade shows was his number one recruitment source. Well, keep in mind, those of you that go to trade shows that your people could be getting recruited, but that because they could have social time and get to know them. And some people go there looking for clients. He went there looking for employees, that was his, his strategy.

Brad Giles  24:21

Yeah, and look, the other one is customers, you could bring up your customers who probably know your competitors pretty well and just say, look, we’re looking for an amazing person who do you know, that might be an amazing person that that could work for us? That’s not an unreasonable question to ask a

Kevin Lawrence  24:41

customer or who do you know that is like the best sales person that you deal with for anything? Yeah, but you love dealing with and then Okay, well, then then we can we can chat with them for sure.

Brad Giles  24:54

And so then the next point is how do you reach out so so this is a cold call, so situation. So let’s roleplay that I’ll be the employer if you like. And then let’s see how this goes more like you it. Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring ring. Hello, Kevin. Is it, Kevin? it this is Kevin, Who the hell is this? Hi, this is Brad, how you doing today? Look, you know, I work at ABC Corp. Maybe you’ve heard of us? Maybe you haven’t. But you know what? Your name just keeps popping up? And I don’t know, I just thought I’d reach out to you because so many people have mentioned that you’re a bit of a star in your industry that you’re doing really well. Now. We don’t actually have any jobs at the moment. Okay, I’ll just caveat that. But I just thought I couldn’t help but reach out because you’re obviously doing some amazing things, and wondered if perhaps you’d like to catch up for coffee. Now. Maybe we could work together one day, maybe we couldn’t. I’m not saying as I said, there’s nothing on the table. But I wonder if you’d be open for a coffee or coffee sometime in the next couple of months? Sure. That sounds interesting. That’s how you do, right. Yeah. Let’s book a date. And research says and you know, different scripts, different situations, about 70 to 80% of candidates that are qualified for the role you have, will have a conversation. Yeah. Will the topic people will listen, because, you know, it’s like, everyone wants to be invited, although, whether it’s men or women, they want to be sexist. Everyone wants to be invited to the prom or go to the prom, ie people want to be asked people take pleasure in being asked. It’s affirming and makes people feel good. Right? And whether or not they have any interest. It’s just it’s Yeah, it’s terrain asked.

Kevin Lawrence  26:52

It’s flattering, it is flattering. And if anything comes from it, who knows? But just it’s really reaching out. And just as you did, hey, let’s grab a coffee. love to chat with you. I hear amazing things about you, like you said, which was all true, I’m sure in that roleplay. But that’s as simple as that.

Brad Giles  27:11

Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. I flat out. I’m flattered. I’ve said we’ve got no jobs. So there’s no, there’s no purchasing threat. When I do that. It’s not like, Hey, Kevin, I want you to come and work for us. We need someone by Tuesday, do you reckon you can do that, in desperation, it just reeks and so instead, it’s like maybe one day we’ll be able to work together. We’re just building a team of players per team of stars. And everything I’ve heard about you sounds like you might be a good fit. Yep. So yeah, that’s an example of how to reach out to a customer. And then I think the other thing is that you’ve got to nurture your leads, you’ve got to nurture your virtual bench. There’s no point having a coffee with suspects. Yes, if you’re going to have a coffee, you’re going to be prepared to have 14 conversations. I never forget when I was in sales earlier in my career, one of my clients that became the number two client of the company I worked for that I cold called, I had 17 meetings with him before he signed off. 17x 17 Follow up sorry, 17, follow ups, combination of calls, meetings, etc. But then he became the number two clients, the company. And that’s what it takes. That’s how you win. But if you’re going to don’t bother doing one if you’re not going to do 17, because it’s very unlikely to happen with one conversation. It’s like, you know, meeting someone and going on a date, and then expected that you’re going to get married and spend your life together by the second time you meet them. That’s not how the world works. That’s not how the world works. No, it’s not it. But but but a lot of people will not do the 17. Yeah, I’ve seen some stats. I know that was your example 17 that it takes 12 calls to make a sale in a b2b environment. But think about it this way. If you think about the absolute top a player in your industry, the person who will do three times the work will produce three times the result of anyone else. How many phone calls, would you be prepared all coffees would you be prepared to have with that person in order to have that person work for your organization? loss should be the answer. Lots and lots. If the person was in sales, and they were gonna put 10 mils on the bottom line, how many conversations would you have? Or if they were an amazing a player that was going to make your business much better make it award winning, make it sustainable, take pressure off your shoulders, like amazing people are worth whatever the heck it takes. But we don’t act in accordance with that we ask HR to go hire a recruiter to go and get it for us which is really almost absurd. It’s almost like It’s wrong, right? It’s wrong. And I understand why it happens because people are busy. And they got other things they need to do. So it’s a great strategy that can produce amazing returns, both in terms of great people. And, and often you can get them quicker on your team, you know, not, not even a few weeks ago, I was in a quarterly, offside strategic meeting with a client. And we were talking about the skills shortage again, and the CEOs there. And then the operations manager, or the general manager is also there. And we’re talking about who could we get to fill some senior roles? And I said, I said, well, in terms of the ambassadorial role, they call the CEO, the candidate whisperer, right. So that’s the kind of the joke that they say, because he goes and meets with a candidate, and then they somehow come to work for us. But we said, Why don’t we roll out the candidate whisperer, because they’d had there been one or two conversations over the past year with this person, they needed a role. And I said, Look, why don’t we just get the candidate whisperer? Why don’t we get the CEO there to go with the operations manager, you have lunch, and then we’ll get a really amazing person. Now, that may seem so simple and easy to us in this conversation, but it hadn’t really dawned on them. So we were saying, How can we strategically use the leader as an ambassador in this role, to get the candidate to come over. And so that is not only just about that individual’s capability as a candidate whisperer, that is every leaders potential to attract people on the virtual bench.

Brad Giles  31:46

And that’s a great way to summarize it is that really, to be most effective in your role, you need to build a virtual bench because you need to continually add the right talent. And you want to be able to be proactively doing that even it might even be if a team member is faltering, and they need to you need to move them to a different part of the business or something else. Being able to do this is not rocket science, it is not a highly skilled activity. It’s just a disciplined activity. Like most things in business, and I go back to Jim Collins, it’s, you know, what, what makes companies incredibly successful, is relentless execution of the boring basics. And this is one of those. It’s a disciplined activity, no different than sales, people prospecting, or sports scouts scouting. But when you do it, you have a much better chance of building a better team and know the better team. So as we talked about, really, so we got like five things here today, really, is that a player’s rarely apply for jobs, especially at the mid and senior levels. You know, like sports and sales, you got to have active energy into proactive recruitment. And that’s having your most talented, connected people doing it, you know, not not not delegating it too much. whose responsibility, it’s yours. HR is a support, and they’re great support. But you know, when a hired recruiter is a solution that we use all the time, because people haven’t done this if people did this consistently, we probably wouldn’t need to do the hard recruiters are not near as often. And where suppliers, customers, LinkedIn dormant networks, trade shows everywhere, anywhere, your local cafe, whatever it happens to be in recruitment mode, like like, like you’re a commissioned salesperson,

Kevin Lawrence  33:32

then how reach out, say, Hi, tell them truth that you’ve been told great things about them, and invite them to the prom, invite them to a coffee, let them know that they’re important and special and to be willing to have a conversation with them. With no strings attached. Let’s just have a chat. Knowing that you’ll probably have 17

Brad Giles  33:51

awesome. Yeah, virtual bench such an important concept. So thank you for that. Thank you for that summary. Let’s move to close. Thank you for listening to the growth whispers I hope you got some value today. I especially got value out of our roleplay I hope that you did too. Yeah, we should try that in the future. You can find us Kevin Lawrence is available at Lawrence and koat.com. And myself, Brad Giles available at evolution partners.com.au. And of course as always, you can catch us on YouTube. Just search the growth whispers and you’ll find the video version of this. Thanks for watching. We hope that you have a great week.