What happens when managers tell you people are leaving for more money?

As a leader, your direct reports will tell you that a team member of theirs has left for more money. The problem is that it’s an easy excuse that actually leads to never fixing attrition issues. Instead, what if you didn’t accept that answer and asked them for the real answer?

In this episode, Brad Giles and I discuss “The Seven Hidden Reasons Employees Leave”, a book by Leigh Branham about why people leave jobs, and how you can use these insights to develop a better operational culture.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Please note that this episode was transcribed using an AI application and may not be 100% grammatically correct – but it will still allow you to scan the episode for key content.

Kevin Lawrence  00:13

Welcome to the Growth Whispers podcast where everything we talk about is about building enduring great companies. Why? Well, we just kind of like it. We like seeing companies that build decade after decade and dominate their spaces and become just awesome companies on the planet. I’m Kevin Lawrence here in peach land, British Columbia. And I’m here with Brad Giles my loyal, awesome partner here, down in Perth, Australia, Brad, how you doing today?

Brad Giles  00:45

Lovely, very, very good. How are you Kev?

Kevin Lawrence  00:48

That’s good. As usual, like life is good. Life is grand. Businesses good. Yeah, I’m happy to be here. We always get some great thinking when we put these podcasts together. So what’s the word of the day?

Brad Giles  01:04

It’s, it’s filthy. It’s no, no, it’s not the word filthy. It’s a disgusting, filthy thing that I learned about on the weekend. And it’s just, it’s just repulsive. So, oh, this

Kevin Lawrence  01:19

is gonna be good.

Brad Giles  01:21

I came across this concept called over workers, right, there’s a Reddit forum called overworking. And it’s remote workers who are holding down multiple jobs and lying to their employers, that they’re only working for them. So they’ve got, for example, they could be a software engineer, and they’ve got a computer for job a, well, they call it J one, Job one, they’ve got another computer for j two. And some of them have got eight or nine full time jobs. So you think about what’s the full time salary multiplied by eight or nine. And there’s this whole community of people that are giving each other tips and tricks on how to get around hiring, and KPIs and accountability, and all of this stuff, and it’s filthy and disgusting. I’m sorry, if I’m upset your day. But yeah, it really, really affected me when I read it. Thank you, for allowing me to vent.

Kevin Lawrence  02:31

I think I had someone that did that. And it was a wild experience. That is incredible. People are very creative. That will the people who want everyone in the office that’ll catalyze them more to do it, although you probably could do it in the office too, if you really were clever, and have one remote job and one fixed job anyway, that’s a whole other thing. That’s an incredible. My, my word of the day is adventure. And, you know, doing a lot of I listen to audiobooks rather than reading. But, you know, as we were doing this great road trip through California, and checking on all kinds of different places, and different good and different bad in some cases, but just how it opens up your mind to new things, just seeing and having different experiences makes you think differently. And that’s what I love. And from, you know, the worst restaurant that I went to, we went to just this little place on the ocean that was horrific, actually. Just horrible. To the bass, but you just get to see like people have a good intent people don’t intend to do poorly. But for whatever reason, sometimes that they just do. And in this place, I can just see this, that’s just how they do things, right. So but adventure opens up your mind, you get different perspectives and different ideas and different angles. You know, some of the conversations that we had with people like the stranger, we were in a place just down by Newport Beach, California, in this little restaurant that was recommended by one of the clients work with down there and little Italian place at a night really nice dinner. But the guy across the street was across the table, who was super chatty winds up having dinner chatting with a table beside us. And when he talked about what he was doing, he was a rock band and he’s a drummer for a whole bunch of the bands that we would know he was like a freelance drummer talking about his life, but just the adventure and the people you meet in opening it up. So what was your word again, Brad, it was a dirty, dirty, dirty inventor.

Brad Giles  04:44

Not it was over workers.

Kevin Lawrence  04:46

Over workers. It was dirty content over workers and adventures, you know, you know, you probably could do if you just did a whole bunch of overworking and pretended to work. You probably could have some adventures, although I wouldn’t be able to live with myself off if I was doing its ethics, isn’t it? Yeah, it is. It’s like come on, like we have one of our core values in our firm is to do what you say. And then some, you make a commandment, you deliver it and ideally do a little bit more. Which is not something that’s true for those who do.

Brad Giles  05:14

You know, very quickly, the thing that struck me is all of this stuff that we talk about, from hiring, finding a players doing interviews with or reference checks with multiple employers, KPIs regular meetings that are structured, smart priorities, all of this stuff that we stick to was the things that the over workers were trying to not do, or they were like, this is the way that you get caught. And so that was it was kind of reassuring that if you stick to the recipe, that that we advocate.

Kevin Lawrence  05:58

That there’s not room for that, there’s not very varied and also our manager, who’s I mean, obviously, those people’s managers are absent to some degree. That doesn’t mean what the I mean, the management issue should pick that up unless they’re in on the scam too. Which could, which could be happening. Another interesting thing that I’ve seen was when in same thing is there’s shysters everywhere. Yeah. You know, one hotel, we stayed out in California, I won’t name it out of respect for it. But it had a 4.2 rating for like a mid market Hotel. 4.2 was quite a good rating for hotel on Expedia. It should have had about a 2.2. Yeah, to the point where we booked two nights, at the end of the first night, we’re in the office to other people had issues that they were trying to deal with, as well as a small boutique hotel by the beach. We’re like, we need our money back. And we need to go somewhere else. We cannot stay out again. Yeah. And that’s, that’s never happened in my life. But the worst part about it is, is that it had an excellent rating and good reviews. Once you stepped into place. It was impossible for that to be true. Impossible and have a there was a 12 or 14 room place. Three of us had issues. You know, and it’s just, it’s there’s always someone who’s got an angle. So we’re not talking about shysters today, we could do a whole episode on the scams that we’ve seen. Only have I seen scams in companies like theirs. They’re just everywhere. But this is different. Yeah. Speak. It’s although it is a bit of a scam that we’re trying to debunk, which is, you know, when managers tell you they’re leaving for when someone’s one of their people is leaving, and they’re leaving for more money. That’s a bit of a that’s a bit of a scam. Because yeah, true. Yeah. People, people, generally, more than nine, about 90% of the time people leave for other variables. Now, they might actually be getting more money. That’s not why they’re leaving.

Brad Giles  07:57

So I want to paint this scenario. Sorry, Kevin, I want to paint this scenario. So you’re in a meeting, you’re the you’re a senior leader. And one of your direct reports comes to you and says, You never believe but Joanne, pick a random name. Joanne is leaving, Joe is she’s she gave me a resignations pretty disappointing. And then you say, Oh, no. What, why? And that person says she’s been offered more money. Right? So this is the scenario that we’re trying to paint for you as a common scenario happens all the time.

Kevin Lawrence  08:35

When people are leaving. They commonly say that because they’re not dumb. And they don’t want to burn a bridge and tell you it’s because you’re a jerk as their manager.

Brad Giles  08:47

And that’s what we’re trying to call out. And what we’re trying to say it’s so simple and easy. And it’s like that old chestnut again just imagine if we paid 20% higher we wouldn’t have any of these problems might not be true not true at all.

Kevin Lawrence  09:09

No people would be happy for a couple of weeks but then the fundamental issues are still there. It’s interesting. So there will share some research later on but I I have a habit now because by the way the people that care that we leave that we care about are A-players by the way if the people that you missed hardly think were ill they save us the headache and they can save face and move on so if they’re low performers that leave fine we’re not talking about that that they’re helping us to fix our mistakes and go find a place where they’ll probably be happier and perform better we’re talking about your awesome people leave we call A players. Collins would say that there are people that are level five leaders have their leaders just awesome people and so it’s that’s what we’re looking for. But so basically my curiosity since I’ve read research around it and got sick of hearing that excuse I ask every new executive that comes and joins us from somewhere else. When I get a chance, I ask why I just did it. Today is Monday, I did it on Thursday with a new executive. And I’ll tell you about that one in a second. And when people leave, if I have a chance I ask, or we do proper exit interviews. Now, depending on your HR team, they may or may not be good at getting the truth. People are often guarded. If it’s a senior exec, we often have one of the team, one of our firm, one of our consultants do it, or sometimes some really good HR teams can’t have someone who’s good at extracting the truth. Either way, we want to get the real deal of why they left so we can learn because these are high performers. These aren’t the low performers. So as an executive, I talked to you the other day. And I’ll keep it generic just because I didn’t ask her permission to share it. But it’s generic. But this is an incredible A-player executive that has the experience you would dream of. He made a massive relocation, massive relocation to a place he never wanted to choose to live. I had the chance to have a good conversation about this. And I said, So what’s the deal? Because well, the recruiter called and they said a few things. And they got my interest. And then, you know, the CEO, and I had a conversation that went quite well. And I went home and told my wife, this is kind of interesting. And then the CEO, and I talked every couple of weeks now this CEO is excellent at recruitment, and he’s an awesome guy. So he should be. I said, okay, yeah, but why did you consider leaving your existing gig? So he told me about the sales process? Almost always good. But why did you leave? Oh, I was bored out of my mind.

Brad Giles  11:56

Because it wasn’t more money.

Kevin Lawrence  11:58

No, actually, I didn’t ask him. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he got paid less. He might have got paid the same.

Brad Giles  12:04

No, my question is the course.

Kevin Lawrence  12:08

Never the truth. I’ve never heard that primer. Exactly. No, I’ve never heard it from an executive that comes in joins us and even the ones that leave it’s I don’t recall hearing that in a long, long, long time. It’s always something else when you dig. And so as I was telling you about the board was well, I’m used to being in a really dynamic, challenging company. The job was pretty basic. I didn’t have to work that hard. And it was boring. It was. So that was one thing, it wasn’t that engaging or challenging. I was kind of lackluster. Secondly, although I was getting paid well. Secondly, he said, this was an exciting opportunity to take all my experience in my career to a company that’s earlier in its growth curve, and to apply it and make something exciting and to kind of make what I’ve always wanted to make. Yeah, so it was exciting. And growth. And by the way, the last thing he said, and if he’s listening to this, or people in the room are listening, they will remember this moment he goes, and at the end of the day, if you get offered a ride on a rocket ship, you say yes. And this company that I’m working with is like a rocket ship. So it was exciting versus boring. He was challenging versus boring. And in many ways the vision is and what’s going on in the company is rocket ship, like and he’s there and all in and he’s awesome.

Brad Giles  13:37

So many things coming out of that. First of all, if I go back 20,30 years ago, when I was an employee, I remember people would say that a pay rise only lasts a week.

Kevin Lawrence  13:48

I’ve heard this too. Yeah.

Brad Giles  13:51

So you go you get frustrated, you get your you know, your coverage up and you go in there as an employee, and then you say, Okay, I want to get a pay rise, how much negotiate, something comes out, and then you feel okay, that’s good. And then you go away, and you get your next pay packet. But all of the problems that drew your frustration are still there. And, and so the problem hasn’t really been resolved. You’ve you know, you’ve just upset your boss or got a little bit more pain.

Kevin Lawrence  14:23

You just a little sweetener on the deal, but it’s still crap. It was interesting talking to my son who’s 19 now and some of his friends and one of his one of the people in his life was talking about how they left one location of a restaurant and went to another same same same chain. And they said, basically, this other place I know the manager is awesome. In a place I’m at, the manager, she is not nice. There was a death in her family and there was they were not being sympathetic and supportive at all, and just not handling people well. It was a horrific manager making a semi toxic environment. So they left the same chain restaurant and went to a different location because of a better manager. Now, I said, and what did you tell your manager when you left? Actually, I forget what it was. But what she said clearly, she sure as heck didn’t say because the manager was an idiot. She go, and she said, and this is 19 or 18 year old girl. I don’t want to burn my bridges. So it gets me was it’s not safe to tell the truth. Now, she did say she might go back after and say it because she was a more of an outspoken type person. But we all know we’ve been in those situations. Yeah, where it’s hard. And you know, and I, you know, I even I had a client. And normally we filter our clients very well, I had a client that I had to stop working with, because I just, I wasn’t enjoying it, it was draining me. And, you know, I told the CEO exactly what the deal was. But it was really challenging to do it respectfully. Like it was hard. And it was hard where I left because the team felt like I was abandoning the rest of the team. But I just, I wasn’t enjoying it at all. And I can go back to the reasons here, and I’m sure a lot of that kicks in. So there’s, there’s example after example, and I’ll just share one more that was, like, I get angry when we lose a player’s like, like, rage. And, and I get, I have to be careful because they’re not my managers, but to not get too upset. At them hire the manager who was in charge, because it’s almost like a crime in my mind. So we had a woman in a company who was amazing. She was the head of legal, she was an A plus. And she’s one of these people that never missed a deadline ever. Like in her career, probably with that company. She was like, as good as it gets in that job, you could not find a better person full stop. And she was a mother of two children married with two kids, and, and essentially a perfectionist it had everything had to be right. And I remember when she left, I had a conversation with her, I was upset. And I said, what, what happened. And she said, you know, and, you know, quietly to simulate the reality Kevin. I mentioned to my boss, the executive I worked for that I couldn’t keep up the pace that it was too much work. I couldn’t do it. And, and through the conversation, it was like an evening dinner and a couple drinks and chatting, were really what I got out of it was She’s a perfectionist a player who has to perform, she knew she could not sustain it and still have a family. So she was basically choosing between her sanity, or her family or her job, she basically had to quit because she couldn’t there’s no way she could keep up to her expectations of herself. It was impossible. So she had to quit for her sanity, because she wasn’t gonna let work slip. She wasn’t gonna let her family slip. And she didn’t want to kill herself, or destroy herself, I should say in the process. And the worst part is, she was giving clues to her manager and her manager just didn’t see it. And her manager is a good guy. But he didn’t see it and pick up on it and do enough. And so she had to quit.

Brad Giles  18:29

So I want to come back to the question and alter perhaps an alternate view or an offer an ultimate view. So what are what to say? What to say when managers tell you or your direct reports tell you that their people are leaving for more money. Okay, so I’ve got a team that I work with, they’re blue collar. So they work with trades people, okay. And in our economy. We have a mining based economy. And in the regions, let’s say, let’s say, hundreds of kilometers away, or you need to fly to some of these mines. So they’re remote. They make insane profits on these mines. And people get poached from this team for much higher wages. So literally these team members who were trades people can get offered a job at double their pay, right? And these people might be in their 20s and they won’t be able to afford a house to buy a house unless they did something like this. Yeah. So sometimes, it’s a more complicated question. Okay, sometimes because this business that I’m that I work with, it’s hard like, we can’t offer the same kind of wages for sure. So in the short term, got it in a situation where someone cannot feed their family. Right? Like they cannot survive and pay their bills and live.

Kevin Lawrence  20:27

Then yes, people will go for the money because it’s survival no different than this other woman who was doing it for her sanity, there are situations where they don’t earn enough to live. But here’s the thing I’m gonna ask you and I have conversations, I have very intense cover. Like, Brad literally. So let’s just say the guy next door has twice the income that you do. Takes twice the vacations has twice the hosts and way nicer cars. Is your wife gonna say see ya brad? I’m gonna go over and you know, set up shop with a guy next door?

Brad Giles  21:09

The funny thing would be to say would be what? Well, that’s actually what happened on a ticketed story. But that’s not what really happened.

 

Kevin Lawrence  21:27

But but but there are situations where that does happen. Yeah. But generally, it’s because the relationship isn’t good. There’s pieces about the situation that aren’t meeting people’s needs. But if you had an amazing relationship and a bright future together, and all kinds of other things, that doesn’t matter what you wave in front of someone are not going unless it’s about survival, which in that case, it is and that’s why, you know, in the research that Leigh Branham has done in his book, The Seven Hidden Reasons Employees Leave, in his research of over 20,000 exit interviews. 89% of the time people leave for factors other than money. Yeah, for sure. 89, that’s at all levels in the executive and leadership levels that we work with, I would hazard that it’s close to 100. Because they’re beyond being able to pay their bills, or they should be at those levels, versus the frontline labourer who can’t feed their family.

Brad Giles  22:33

I agree with that. And there is definitely a line and I 100% understand Leigh’s data and agree with it. My point in that scenario is, well, we need to figure out a way where money isn’t an object either, because we need to improve our strategy.

Kevin Lawrence  22:56

Maybe you need to pay properly. We do salary surveys to make sure that we’re paying in the right quadrant for the jobs. Like if you’re you know, in my mind, for a lot of the companies we work with that kind of to be in the game, you probably need to be in about the 50th percentile, right, like kind of right in the middle of what the role was.

Brad Giles  23:17

So in that scenario, they might be paying 80 to $85,000. And someone could work in the mines for $190,000. Yeah, right. So it’s and plus they would work solid or straight for 14 days.

Kevin Lawrence  23:38

Is this where they go up to the camp and come back that we have the same thing here?

Brad Giles  23:43

Sure.

Kevin Lawrence  23:44

When people go up to a place in northern Fort McMurray? Do people go two weeks? They’re two weeks off? It’s going out of town job. Yeah, people, you know, young guys go up there and make an absolute killing. Yeah. And as you know it for those that have for a young independent guy, they might not care for people that have families, it can be a little bit different. Yeah, we have that same dynamic here. Yeah, just sell on the other variables that are meaningful. And there’s always going to be some people who will do that, though.

Brad Giles  24:17

But my point is that the principle is is still over arching and it just makes us think more deeply about Yes. saying no, okay, or saying when someone asks you, such and such as leaving, Joanne is leaving for more money. Just don’t accept that primer facie just don’t accept that correct on its merits. We want to go and so what’s the real reason?

Kevin Lawrence  24:47

Let’s not assume it’s not the truth so we can get the learning out of it again. Yeah, because going back to their principles of Jim Collins in the window in the mirror he talks about is if you say they left for money, it’s your response to a problem a window response? Oh, it’s because over there something else, honestly take a look in the mirror. Let’s take a look in the mirror and see what we can learn from this so we can be better. And you know, we can improve what there was that individual leader, or it’s us as an organ organization, we want to assume that it wasn’t that, and let’s learn and grow.

Brad Giles  25:25

And you know why? Because the common phrase is borne out that people join companies and leave managers. So that means that as a manager act saying they left because of more money is looking out the window, and we need to look very convenient.

Kevin Lawrence  25:38

Yeah, it takes the pressure off, you might make you feel good. But it ain’t likely true. And I have some strong conversations with people about especially in markets like this. And I haven’t seen the data change in the conversations I’ve had. And there’s always there’s again, we’ll say that 10% of the time, it could be true, especially at the front lines. Yeah, not so much for. And by the way, I’ve had executives, interestingly, one company that was with it, some executives that other companies badly wanted and needed to hire, they were offering double the wages to a bunch of these people. And when they didn’t take it, I’d ask them why? Well, it was the inverse of the reasons why people normally leave was the reasons they would stay. Yeah. And so. So people are only susceptible to money, one if they cannot live. Or if a whole bunch of other emotional needs aren’t getting met by the job, then, or emotional or just other needs, then, of course, if I’m already thinking about quitting, and you want to offer me 3040 50% More, I’m gonna listen. Yeah, yeah. So let’s go into what Leigh Branham has done his research in his book, and this is one of these books that everyone should read. Not a lot of people know about the seven hidden reasons employees leave. Yeah, maybe I’ll do the first. Yeah, go ahead Brad.

Brad Giles  26:59

Okay, so let’s just start with the data. This is the, like, punch in the gut data. Okay, so 89% of managers say that people leave because they want more money. In Leigh’s 20,000 exit interviews.

Kevin Lawrence  27:14

89% of managers look out the window and blame an external factor.

Brad Giles  27:18

Yeah. 89%. More money is more money. Okay. But then in exit interviews, employees, 88% of employees say that it’s not money, but it’s other reasons that we’ll discuss in a moment. Okay, so you imagine these two pie graphs, we asked the managers, and it’s 89% of the managers, it’s more money. The second paragraph, it looks almost the same. It’s 88% of employees saying no, it’s not the money. Exactly. It’s the all these things

Kevin Lawrence  27:53

Yeah, it’s easy for managers to believe that because that’s what they’re being told. And it also helps them preserve their pride and their ego because they don’t have to take responsibility. Yeah, so yeah, let’s dig in. Let’s go through the seven here. And it’s you know, and basically, number one, which is preventable, is the job wasn’t what they expected. Like, it wasn’t what they signed up for. So you either didn’t clearly articulate it, or set the right expectations for it. But it’s not, you know, they thought this would be an amazing company and amazing culture, and it was different, or they thought it was casual work hours, and it’s intense, or who knows, wasn’t what they expected. Number two, mismatch between job and the person. They’re not capable in the role, again, preventable, both of those up front, because that’s something that we could have done in the screening process, is to make sure that they were capable of doing the job.

Brad Giles  28:52

But also, the inverse of that is true, the story that you told whereby the person was bought out of his wits. Yes.

Kevin Lawrence  29:03

Because if they need to be challenged, and it’s a casual, repetitive, boring job, yeah. So it doesn’t, you know, if they’re a horse, race horse, you know, there are a pony in the circus. The job is being a pony in the circus are not going to be happy. Number, actually, we’re on our list. We’re missing it goes 124567. We’re missing number three, and we’ll pull it up. Okay, number three is too little coaching and feedback. Thank you. And people always want to know how they’re doing. And high performers in particular expect the worst. And especially when they don’t hear it from their managers. That’s why performance reviews get mandated. That’s why we’d like people to do at least a quarterly mini review to keep things going. Then number four, and this one is a killer and it’s a gut punch when it goes wrong, is there’s too few growth and advancement opportunities people will say like my manager is going to be here for the next 20 years, there’s nowhere for me to go. Or whatever it is they cannot see getting to the next level or someone has said you can’t versus having developed. And this is where development plans are key. And it’s horrible when you’re in a company that’s growing 30 or 40% per year. And they can’t see the opportunities for growth. They’re everywhere. But it seems to be you need to paint by number and show them the path. Yeah, again, development plans are critical, critical to that. Brad, you want to take over?

Brad Giles  30:30

Yeah, number five is feeling devalued and unrecognized. So is your employee proud of their company proud of their team, proud of their product and proud of their manager, otherwise, they will eventually leave? And so are they valued and recognized? Does their manager spend one on one time with them? To make sure that they feel like they’re recognized. And you know, what people say, in a large company, when they quit, I was just a number. Like, exactly, I was just a number. Number six stress from overwork, and work life imbalance. Some people love to work themselves into the ground and worked over work, let’s say, and other people don’t, everyone’s got their own measure, but if it’s not working for them, if it’s not working for them, they’re, you know, ultimately, they’re going to leave. So we’ve got to make sure that the work is enough to keep them enough to challenge them, but they can still have a life outside of that, you know, the old Union saying was, we want to have three hours of plumbing, eight hours for work, eight hours for play, and eight hours for sleep. Yep. And that’s where the eight hour workday came from. So number seven, loss of trust and confidence in senior leaders. So if we don’t trust and have confidence in the people that they look up to, that they report to, they’re just gonna think the whole thing is a joke, and they’re gonna, you know, want to work for a decent company.

Kevin Lawrence  32:13

And that’s why you got to deal with your under performers and things. You know, if you’ve got an underperforming executive or senior leader, and you’re not doing anything about it, they’re gonna look at you like you’re an idiot, and lose trust in you, or if there’s so there’s actual trust in you in terms of integrity trust, there’s a vote, you’re trusting your ability to deal with things. And then it’s also your ability to continue to build a successful company, if they see a whole bunch of things that look like failure, and that you’re not changing it again, people lose trust. So seven basic reasons, the thing to really, you know, summarize this with is that, hey, just don’t take the story that people have for money, assume that’s not true, statistically, it’s not likely true. assume it’s not true. So you can look in the mirror and that manager who lost the person, and yourself was coming to learn from it. And so for example, we just lost an excellent senior exec in one of our companies. And we engaged someone to go do a formal and external, do a formal exit interview. So we can learn everything from it. Because you know, losing a key executive has about a million dollar hit. Right? That’s the cost of finding onboarding and getting them up to speed plus a disruption model, you can probably account for about a million bucks for exact pretty easy. And that’s assuming they’re not getting paid a million bucks. You know, that’s a healthy six figure, not a million dollar a year executive. And it’s, it’s we got to learn from not it happens. But we need to absolutely learn so we can be better.

Brad Giles  33:42

Yeah, so what do you say when managers tell you people are leaving for more money? Our advice or an idea might be, I should say, an idea might be? So what’s the real reason? And then ask them to pick from one of those seven reasons. So what’s the real reason?

Kevin Lawrence  34:02

And then when you’re wanting to prevent and retain people, look at the inverse of the seven reasons leave and make it the seven reasons that people will stay? Yep. Yeah. Awesome. Great conversation. I love this topic. And it you know, again, it debunks common myths that people that we hear about in business all the time, and it helps us to be better.

Brad Giles  34:23

Okay. So, yeah, as a leader, your direct reports will tell your team members have left for money. But the problem is, it’s an easy excuse. And that never leads to really fixing the attrition issues. Instead, what if you didn’t accept that answer? And ask them for the real lead? The real answer, pardon me, it will lead to better operational culture. And that’s what we’re talking about today. So, again, we advise and we, we don’t advise, we offer an option for you to say what to say when managers are leaving your company. Just spin back to What’s the real reason. And I’m going to quickly go through those seven.

Kevin Lawrence  35:02

So don’t get them to read the book.

Brad Giles  35:03

Yeah even doubt get them to read the book quick review those those those seven things again. Now one: job or workplace was not as expected, number two: the mismatch between job and person, three: too little coaching and feedback, Four: too few growth and advancement opportunities. Five: feeling devalued and unrecognized, six: stress from overwork and work life balance, seven: loss of trust and confidence in senior leaders. Good chat today Kev. I hope that you all enjoyed today’s episode. For the video version, go to YouTube and search for the growth whisperers. Kevin and his firm Lawrence and Co put out a very interesting newsletter every week that you may wish to subscribe to that you can add his website and of course I’ve got a newsletter as well. You can find my newsletter at evolution partners.com and you obviously if you can hit Subscribe on your podcasts or on YouTube. We’d love to have a regular chat with you if they enjoyed today’s episode, and we look forward to chatting to you again next week. Have a great week.